Protestantism

» pink101 - The Resurrection of Jesus

In response to The Resurrection of Jesus posted by Migisi:
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Right.
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-- posted by pink101

» HeadZenCards - The Resurrection of Jesus

In response to The Resurrection of Jesus posted by HeadZenCards:

From www.godisimaginary.com:

Jesus' resurrection after his death is the ultimate and defining proof of Jesus' divinity. Just about everyone knows the story, which is summarized in the Apostles' Creed. Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

There is only one way for Jesus to prove that he rose from the dead. He had to appear to people. Therefore, several different places in the Bible describe Jesus' appearances after his death:

* Matthew chapter 28
* Mark chapter 16
* Luke chapter 24
* John chapter 20 and 21

1 Corinthians 15:3-6 provides a nice summary of those passages, as written by Paul:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

As you can see in this passage, Jesus appeared to hundreds of people a number of different times.

When we look at these Bible passages, there is a question that comes to mind -- why did Jesus stop making these appearances? Why isn't Jesus appearing today?

It really is odd. Obviously Paul benefitted from a personal meeting with the resurrected Christ. Because of the personal visit, Paul could see for himself the truth of the resurrection, and he could ask Jesus questions.

So... Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us.

If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you?

It is an important question for the following reasons:

* We are told by the Bible that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people.

* We therefore know that it is OK for Jesus to appear to people -- it does not take away their free will, for example.

* We know that it would be easy for Jesus to appear to everyone all through history, since Jesus is all-powerful and timeless.

* We know that, if Jesus did reappear to everyone, it would be incredibly helpful. We could all know, personally, that Jesus is resurrected and that Jesus is God. If Paul (and all the other people in the Bible) needed a personal visit to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why not you and me?

* Yet, we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years.

In other words, there is nothing stopping Jesus from appearing to you, and several good reasons for him to appear.

What if we pray to Jesus like this: "Dear Jesus, please appear to us, as you did to Paul and the 500 brethren, so that we can see the evidence of your resurrection. In your name we pray, amen." Here is what Jesus has promised us in the Bible:

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

In John chapter 14:14:
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

In Matthew 18:19:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus is actually in our midst. So he is right here already, supposedly. Yet when we pray to him to physically materialize, nothing ever happens.

Isn't it odd that Nothing happens, given the fact that Jesus promises us that something will happen? Isn't it odd that nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus is right here with us already, and materialization would be trivial for him?
We have created an unambiguous situation where coincidence cannot "answer" the prayer. The only way for this prayer to be answered is for Jesus to actually, unambiguously, materialize.

As you think about this, you will realize that Paul's story in the Bible must be false. Simply look at Paul's story like any judge in a courtroom would.

What Paul's story in 1 Cor 15 is suggesting is entirely unprecedented - a man dead three days with mortal wounds came back to life. Yet:

* There is absolutely no evidence that the story is true,

* There are many alternative explanations for what Paul is saying. Paul could be fabricating the story, Paul could have hallucinated or dreamed the meeting, Paul could have seen an imposter, etc.

* In addition, no one is seeing Jesus today, even though it would be trivial and obvious for Jesus to appear to people today just like he did with Paul.

Given this evidence, rational people would automatically conclude that Paul's story in the Bible is untrue. There is zero evidence to support Paul's story, zero reason to believe it, a motive to lie and plenty of alternative explanations.

There is also the fact that much of the rest of the Bible contains provably false stories. Plus the fact that it would be trivial for Jesus to provide the evidence that Paul needs to confirm his story by reappearing on earth. Add to that the fact that Jesus has promised to answer our prayers but refuses to materialize when we pray to him. The only thing to do is to reject Paul's story.

Every bit of evidence points to the fact that the resurrection story is a myth, nothing more.

Given that the resurrection story is clearly a myth, it means that Jesus (if he existed at all) was a normal human being, not God. The resurrection clearly did not happen.

And with that, we can see that God himself is imaginary. If God actually did exist and was playing any role whatsoever on this planet, there is no way that he would allow an imposter like Jesus.

Many believers will try to rationalize Jesus' absence by pointing to his famous statement in the Bible, "Happy are those who have not seen yet still believe."

If you think about this statement, what you realize is that it creates the perfect cover for a scam.

Let's say you are Jesus, you are a normal human being, you realize that you are going to die and you want to cover for this fact. Here is what you would say:
"Happy are those who have not seen yet still believe."

What you are saying is, "I exist, and the way I am going to show you that I exist is by not showing that I exist."

For every other object in the universe, the way that we know it exists is because the object provides evidence of its existence.

If there is no evidence for an object's existence, we call it imaginary (e.g. Leprechauns). But with Jesus, the lack of evidence is turned into evidence. Quite clever, but obviously a scam.

You simply need to look at the evidence and accept what it is telling you.

If the resurrection were true, then Jesus would be answering prayers as he promises in the Bible.

He would also appear when people pray to see him. The fact is, as we saw here and here, there is definitive evidence that prayer accomplishes nothing. It is also obvious that Jesus is not appearing on earth today.

While we are on the topic of the resurrection, have you ever thought about how odd the whole crucifixion story is?

Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. He looks down onto earth and says to himself: Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...

Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them...

So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That will, finally, make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.

It makes no sense, does it? Why would an all-knowing being need to have humans kill himself (Jesus is God, after all) to make himself happy?

Especially since it is a perfect God who set the whole thing in motion exactly the way he wanted it?

The story of the crucifixion is absurd from top to bottom if you actually stop to think about it.

By combining the crucifixion story with the resurrection story, you can see the truth -- "God" is a mythological creature just like every other human god. The entire religious domain is make believe.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» redback - The Resurrection of Jesus

Hi HZC!

I have no idea who in history raised the very first probing question but after reading your posts, would not be surprised it was the guy exclaiming as he walked in from the backyard as Jesus exited the front door: "Who was that guy and what did he want?"

There are many ways to ask a question. Trouble is, after reading your posts, I'm left with 23,548 unanswered ones! One is WHY OH WHY am I here?

Are you a Biblical forensic auditor?

-- posted by redback

» redback - The Resurrection of Jesus

Sorry. This is a duplicate post and I've nothing sensible to add. I've taken my glasses off to reduce the wear and tear on the lens so missed what my itchy trigger finger was doing for a microsecond.

-- posted by redback

» Brother_Jones - The Resurrection of Jesus

In response to The Resurrection of Jesus posted by HeadZenCards:

Jesus' resurrection after his death is the ultimate and defining proof of Jesus' divinity.

Oliver, this is one of the best articles that you or anyone else has provided on the subject of Religion. I think if we dice it up and talk about it, you will see why you often stand in the minority in a spiritual culture.

The article is very good. The bottom line (and there is probably more than just one) is that Religion and the Supernatural is unbelievable because these things are not happening to you or anyone you know past or present. If God were real, something would have happened in the Past and something should be happening now. And that is a wonderful argument and probably one of the best arguments known to man.

It can't be defeated easily because it is very near to a Testimonial and you are the eyewitness. I think that it links up pretty nicely with what Pinky and Migisi believe and give so much airtime to trying to explain. But maybe not with as much absolute belief as you.

Let me try to raise a couple of points. First of all the objection to the resurrection in the article is not faith specific, but involves all Faiths in God/gods, and all Religions. The logic insists that all spiritual realms are bogus, based on the idea that these things are not occuring in the past or present. And we need to take your counsel and the good judgement of the writer of the article that such is true. Of course it would be fairly easy to interview you, Pinky, and Migisi. Perhaps we would be able to determine that your Testimony is that nothing has ever happened in the spiritual realm to convince you that anything godly exists. Or to anybody you know or trust.

But my second issue would be this. What if you had the testimony of such folk like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, MLK, and Jesus and you decided for some reason to trust these Testimonies after careful examination. What if you studied the lives of these people in detail and you came to believe that the events that happened to them were accurate. And then you came to trust the Testimony and events that happened in your own Mother and Father's life as true and bonafide. And what if you did have some experiences in your own life that reflected in some way the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Would that help you in anyway to understand people of Faith and their logic of believable Testimony?

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» HeadZenCards - The Resurrection of Jesus

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Your second ponderance was "why oh why am I here?"
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This is a great question. I think that the moon beams and lolipops got lonely and sprinkled magic dust on the ferry rings and the great elf who tamed the spaghetti monster shook his sleeves and out you came!
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As to whether I am a Biblical forensic auditor, I'd say that, no, I was just a sincere human being who read the damm thing.
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To the substance of your first probing question, I'd say good ridance to burglars and pimps like Jesus.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» HeadZenCards - The Resurrection of Jesus

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Thank you for that thoughtful and sincere reply.
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First of all, it doesn't matter who stands "in the minority in a spiritual culture."
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I'm sure you agree, since Jesus-As-Written certainly stood in the minority in the spiritual culture written of in the fiction that is the Bible.
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The bottom line is that there is no evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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"Gandhi" would agree with me, by the way, but experts do not always settle the matter with their testimony, as I'm sure you'd agree.
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Every human being has experiences that do not tell the whole truth. Ever been to a good magic show?
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If not, you should go to one and be AMAZED.
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Would knowing that what you see at a magic show are TRICKS help you understand people who insist on evidence?

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Brother_Jones - The Resurrection of Jesus

In response to The Resurrection of Jesus posted by HeadZenCards:

The bottom line is that there is no evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There is sort of a rumor circulating that Christians are being raised and taught without any true knowledge of their own scriptures. That might be true of a couple of people here. But evidence is more than just blood stains and fingerprints. It is also Testimony of eyewitnesses.

There are Christians who meet in coffee shops and homes everyday and they examine the evidence of those who lived and walked with Jesus. And some of those folks have been studying the bible intensely since youth.

"Gandhi" would agree with me,

On maybe 1% of your stuff. lol. Have you studied the life of Gandhi? Do you know what he believed about God?

Would knowing that what you see at a magic show are TRICKS help you understand people who insist on evidence?

I don't follow the train of thought that you and others follow here about most people. I don't see the average common religious person as some sort of babbling idiot who has never read the bible. Neither do I see the average New Testament Jew as one who wouldn't know the difference between parlor magic and claims of being raised from the dead.

Nothing wrong with being in the minority. But being against all Religion and everything Supernatural puts you in the category of someone who denies all Spirituality. And that is a risky business for a grown mature adult, imo.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - The Resurrection of Jesus

In response to The Resurrection of Jesus posted by Brother_Jones:
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Eyewitnesses?
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You mean to say that you want to call recorded information about eyewitnesses that is, in some cases, a hundred or more years after their deaths credible?
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An eyewitness, Brother Jones, is standing right there in real time and telling you what it was that they saw. Stories about people being eyewitnesses are just that, stories.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - The Resurrection of Jesus

In response to The Resurrection of Jesus posted by pink101:

You have arrived at the point that all religious documents are pure fiction, lies, or embellishments. Shake hands with Oliver. He can't make any distinctions either. Or Migisi. No qualifiers at all with you three. Old is hokey just by the notion of age and source. If a Jew wrote it and it shows up in the bible, then it ain't so.

lol.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones