Protestantism

» Brother_Jones - Bible as History (Simon)

In response to Bible as History (Simon) posted by paper_turtle:

Just where do I say anything about rejecting Jesus? I disagree with the literalist view of the Bible, but that does not mean I reject Jesus.

You seem to have the habit of assigning your own personal definition to the idea of doctrine. And since that word has an abundance of meanings outside the biblical one, it might be of some help if you would try to define it in the context it is found in the text. It appears that you believe that it often connotes a negative or head driven idea of what Christians believe.

But that appears not true if you study the usages of the word 'doctrine' in the New Testament. It truly does involve both the mind and heart if you look at the context. And it appears to most that it is virtually impossible for some to voice the 'doctrine,' and to communicate that Jesus is Lord, if you believe that He did not come into the world to be Lord.

And it seems unfortunate that so many believe that they are spreading the truth about Jesus when they are simply calling attention to the purity of their own lives and would teach children that Jesus was sinful like the rest of us. It is a sign of the times that so many have abandoned any testimony about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, to pursue their own testimony of their own love filled life (calling attention to their own purity), while denying almost daily the divinity of Christ. And it seems to come under the testimonial banner that 'doctrine' or teaching about Jesus is no longer relevant especially when it concerns whether He actually came into the world to save anyone or be Lord to anybody. It seems to be a new doctrine which would say 'follow me,' because you can't trust the biblical teaching that Jesus was a reliable source of information about God.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» paper_turtle - Doctrine

In response to Bible as History (Simon) posted by Brother_Jones:
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Doctrine, as I define it, is what a particular church teaches as articles of faith. Doctrine has to do with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (see end of this message)
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Doctrine is man-made, and based upon one person's (or one group's) opinion of what to believe. Catholic doctrine includes transubstantiation, Protestant dfoctrine does not. Both Catholic and Protestant Biblical scholars would contend that their view is supported by scripture and divinely inspired.
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SOME churches use doctrine as a means of separating the righteous (themselves) from the unrighteous (anyone who disagrees with their beliefs).
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I am not the only one who views doctrine as head knowledge. I am not the only one who believes that heart knowledge is more important than head knowledge. And I find much in the Bible which tells me quibbling over stuff like this takes us away from what really matters.
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As for the purity of my life, I don't give a fig what anyone thinks of me. I just don't like being judged. No one does. I am saying that it is wrong (not to mention illogical) to evaluate one's worth as a Christian on some point of belief.
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As a matter of fact, its just plain wrong to judge. Period.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle
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According to the Oxford Complete Word Finder:
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doctrine:
1. what is taught; body of instruction
2. a) a principle of religious, political, ect., belief
2. b) a set of such principles; dogma
synonyms: teaching, body of instruction, principle, precept, tenet, belief, opinion, idea, concept, theory, proposition, thesis, conviction, postulate, credo, dogma, article of faith, canon, creed
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dogma
1. a) a principle, tenet, or system of these, especially as laid down by the authority of a church
1. b) such principles collectively
2. an arrogant declaration of opinion

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brother_Jones - Doctrine

In response to Doctrine posted by paper_turtle:

Doctrine, as I define it, is

Well, okay. It appears that you aren't going to go looking in the bible for definitions and a possible answer to what 'doctrine,' might have meant to Jesus and His followers.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» paper_turtle - Doctrine

In response to Doctrine posted by Brother_Jones:

Jesus, to the best of my recall, never referred specifically to doctrine. What doctrine Jesus would have known would have been the doctrine of the Jews.
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To my mind, what Jesus taught was not doctrine (in the strictest sense of the word), and I think its confusing to equate *church* teaching with what can be found in the Bible. What I learn through reading the Bible for myself, and through my relationship with God, is taught to me *by* God.
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I think its interesting that almost all of the synonyms for doctrine are conditional words, implying things which cannot be proven absolutely. They are articles of faith, and faith develops out of relationship, not pedantry.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brother_Jones - Doctrine

In response to Doctrine posted by paper_turtle:

They are articles of faith, and faith develops out of relationship, not pedantry.

Well, is it possible that you might be wrong?

I think that I understand that teaching and preaching are not very high priorities on the list of components of your faith, especially when looking to others. But it seems presumption to to warn others of this kind of communication, when Jesus spent so much time teaching and preaching. I believe Jesus sent His followers into the world to teach and preach. He was a preacher Himself. But more to the point, if we don't at least try to discover the biblical meanings of the life of Jesus, then we are simply looking inside for a voice that is sometimes unbiblical and man centered. Especially when it comes to a highly emotionally charged concept like doctrine, Christians should be willing to examine what the bible actually says about the subject.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» paper_turtle - Doctrine

In response to Doctrine posted by Brother_Jones:

What I have observed about life in general tells me experience teaches--at least when it comes to lessons in how best to live one's life. The smallest child has to learn, for him-/herself what pain is before heshe will believe a parent saying "Don't touch, you'll get hurt."
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John Dewey, speaking of public education, said we learn by doing. I think its equally true of other things we learn.

We learn how to love because our parents and others love us. We learn that kindness is better than cruelty by experiencing cruelty and kindness. We learn to trust because the people in our lives show themselves to be trustworthy.
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We could talk all day about love, but it means nothing until you know it for yourself.
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You could spend several hours telling me what a great person John Doe is, but until I meet him for myself its just words.
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The things we really learn in life we learn the hard way, through experiencing the negative consequences of our mistakes. We might know we "shouldn't" have three doughnuts, but we won't own that knowledge until our favorite piece of clothing doesn't fit.
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Same thing with our spiritual life.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - Paul's letter to Timothy

In response to Doctrine posted by paper_turtle:

PaperTurtle, do you believe that your conception or understanding of Christianity (or perhaps I should say Christian practice) meshes with Paul?

As a pastor, I look to I and II Timothy as being pretty solid instruction manuals on what is expected of me. Paul tells Timothy to "Preach the Word" and to hew close to the "Scriptures." To eschew "false doctrine" and on and on.

If I'm not understanding you, I apologize. This post isn't meant to debate you. Just trying to understand your argument better. Do you consider yourself in agreement with the Apostle Paul?

» Migisi - Respond to PT

In response to Respond to PT posted by redback:

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This poll has attracted 4 responses as at midday Monday OZ time.
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Guess which answer was mine. (wink)
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Jesus is indisputably a Biblical character... "Jesus is exactly what the Bible says he is"...
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Agree. We can't reject this as a fact. He IS what the BIBLE says he is. Jesus is also indisputably a character in the Qur'an. The same fact applies to that sacred text -- Jesus IS what the QUR'AN says he is.
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But I believe Jesus is worthy of further study. Whether as some complex manifestion of God or as an ancient wise human.
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Agree. While Jesus IS the central NT Bible character, his apostles and disciples' writings deserve further study as well. Central figures in other sacred texts (The Tao Te Ching, Mahabharata, the Gospel of Buddha, the Vedas, the Khorda Avesta, etc.) are also worthy of study, IMO.
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"Christianity as it was originally founded"
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No one alive today knows how Christianity was 'originally founded', since they weren't present at its 'founding'. "...what is history and what is allegory, blurs." Exactly.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Paul's letter to Timothy

In response to Paul's letter to Timothy posted by BrianTubbs:

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Do you consider yourself in agreement with the Apostle Paul?
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Was Paul in total agreement with what Jesus taught? Just curious who you follow.

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Paul's letter to Timothy

In response to Paul's letter to Timothy posted by BrianTubbs:

I & 2 Timothy are two of my favorite epistles. *On the whole,* I agree with what is said in them and believe I live consistently with these words.
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That doesn't mean there aren't a few points where you and I might differ on what is meant/implied ...
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BUT ...
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in 2 Timothy 2:14 it says:
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stop disputing about mere words. It does no good, and it is the ruin of those who listen. (wink)
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle