Protestantism

» paper_turtle - Jesus of History

In response to Jesus of History posted by BrianTubbs:

Look, I believe the Bible when it comes to what it says that Jesus did and said. I believe much of what is said. I believe it ON FAITH. I live it THROUGH FAITH.
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I don't particularly *care* about its historical authenticity. The Bible was never intended to be a hsitory book in the first place.
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BUT using the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't work. Using the words of the Bible to prove they are true doesn't work either.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Respond to PT

In response to Respond to PT posted by BrianTubbs:
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Belief does not equal reality.
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Now you're cookin'.
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:)
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Faith, Belief, Truth, etc.

In response to Jesus of History posted by paper_turtle:

Paper Turtle, let me first say that I respect you personally and your perogative to believe whatever you want. Second, I will defend your legal and constitutional right to freely exercise your religious faith. We have common ground on those points.

This is a friendly discussion about the particulars of Christianity as it was originally founded. And I think it's an important one. Again, YOU can believe and feel whatever you want, but it's not your perogative OR mine to change history to suit our beliefs. And I say that to confirm agreement, because you've said that you're not basing your beliefs on history. But here's the thing...

History DOES matter. I don't think it's appropriate (yes, you have the right to - just as Migisi, Pink, myself, Wendell and anyone else does) to REINVENT or REDEFINE Christianity. I believe our objective SHOULD be to discover and learn what Christianity IS.

Jesus said that He is the "Way, the Truth, and the Life." I am not the "Way, the Truth, and the Life." Pink isn't either. Migisi isn't. Wendell isn't. You aren't. And again - I certainly am not. Jesus is. So....

Who is Jesus? Not who do I want him to be. Not who do I think he is. Not who do I feel he is. But who IS he?

I think history is VERY, VERY important in determining that answer.

Now, I agree with you that faith and spiritual experience are ALSO important. As a Christian, I believe the Holy Spirit confirms Jesus in our hearts - and I believe we are called to a RELATIONSHIP with God, and not just a history book lesson. So, I'm with you on that.

But I think you're giving too short shrift to history. That's important too - and my saying that is consistent with apostolic teaching.

» Brian Tubbs - Bible as History

Paper Turtle writes that the Bible was never intended to be a "history book." That's not entirely correct. Take the Gospel of Luke - which is the first of two letters to a man named Theophilus. The writer (and there's little reason to challenge early church attribution of Luke to that Gospel) makes very clear in the opening of that Gospel that he's writing HISTORY...

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

That's from Luke 1:1-4. That's history.

» paper_turtle - Bible as History

In response to Bible as History posted by BrianTubbs:

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In "Faith, Belief, Truth, etc, Brian wrote:
History DOES matter. I don't think it's appropriate (yes, you have the right to - just as Migisi, Pink, myself, Wendell and anyone else does) to REINVENT or REDEFINE Christianity. I believe our objective SHOULD be to discover and learn what Christianity IS.
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Are you saying that what I have said, in the context of this thread, in some way reinvents or redefines Christianity? If so, then I strongly disagree. That would be like saying I have redefined the rules of nutrition simply because I'm a vegetarian. If I want to remain healthy I still have to include sources of protein in my diet, along with all the fruits and vegetables I love so much. And there needs to be balance, and variety if I am to give my body everything it needs.
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Christianity means being a disciple of Christ. But we are *all* unique, with different gifts, capabilities, interests--and ways of perceiving. You love history, so you see history everywhere. I love art and poetry, so I see these everywhere. I don't require that YOU love art and poetry as much as I do. I don't expect you to see poetry and art in every single thing. Nor would I say you were "revising" or "redefining" Christianity because you don't share my perspective.
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Also in "Faith, Belief, Truth, etc, Brian wrote:
Who is Jesus? Not who do I want him to be. Not who do I think he is. Not who do I feel he is. But who IS he?
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I think history is VERY, VERY important in determining that answer.
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But I think you're giving too short shrift to history. That's important too - and my saying that is consistent with apostolic teaching.
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I didn't say history wasn't important. I simply said it is not a decisive factor in determining what I believe. And it is far from being the entire focus of the Bible or "apostolic teaching."
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In "Bible as History" Brian wrote:
Paper Turtle writes that the Bible was never intended to be a "history book." That's not entirely correct.
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As I imply above, there is much more to the Bible than just history. The Talmud encompasses much more than just Torah. It also refers Midrash, Mishnah, and Gemara--all of which are interpretations of text. This is important because it clearly points to a view of Torah which is NOT literal. The Jews viewed their scripture as instructive, not because it was literal but because of the truths it contained.
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Granted, what I have just said is a bit of history. But it also points out that the Bible was intended as an instruction manual, not a textbook. The stories about what happened in the Bible are important not because of their literal truth but because of what they tell us about God and ourselves.
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The Bible contains poetry, philosophy, prophecy, and a whole lot more. When I read a passage in the Bible I'm not looking for data on what happened in a particular point in time. I'm looking for guidance, inspiration, or comfort. I'm looking for help in how best to be a disciple.
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Human life, the life of each person, contains history--of course it does. But we do not live our daily lives in the past. We need to know where we have been, but we also need to know where we are now, and where we will be in the future if we continue walking the same path.
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Jesus is here, in this present moment. If I am to keep going on the right path, I need to pay attention to what is here, right now. THAT is reality.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Respond to PT

In response to Respond to PT posted by pink101:
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Brian wrote: "Belief does not equal reality."
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Now you're cookin'.
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... with gas. Using his own words, we could say that Brian's belief does not equal reality either.
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As I see it, the Bible is a sacred religious text like any other - written and compiled by adherents specifically to promote their belief system.

-- posted by Migisi

» redback - Respond to PT

In response to Respond to PT posted by Migisi:

This poll has attracted 4 responses as at midday Monday OZ time.

What do I believe from what? My life experiences, how the story of Jesus has been presented to me elsewhere, what I've read here and heard discussed etc about Jesus...or despite all this. (The option of living in a vacuum is excluded here) Tick the box that is closest to what I believe...or closest to what surveyors want to draw separate conclusions from?

Jesus is indisputably a Biblical character. I have studied insufficently to advance my belief-in-concrete much beyond that. I think the quantum leap of faith (by default in concrete) that Paper Turtle and others have made, may help them tick such boxes.

"Jesus is exactly what the Bible says he is" type question relies on a Bible version/s full of double meanings or allegories and chicken and egg questions. Per postings here.

But I believe Jesus is worthy of further study. Whether as some complex manifestion of God or as an ancient wise human. I believe the Bible is one valuable book on spirituality that needs to be read in context. Re-inventing history? Did the Pope re-write history recently when he decided babies can now go straight to Heaven...or do ancient understandings of the Bible need review.

I think I'm getting confused about the language used here. Brian talks of our friendly discussion on "Christianity as it was originally founded" whereas I thought it might be about what Christianity is and /or should be today. And lately, what is history and what is allegory, blurs.

-- posted by redback

» EvilChihuahua - Respond to PT

In response to Respond to PT posted by pink101:

True that. One word: Xenu!!!

-- posted by EvilChihuahua

» siminspain - Bible as History

In response to Bible as History posted by paper_turtle:

Hi all,
I'm with Brian on this (no surprise there then)
If you are going to reject what the Bible says about Jesus (which you are) you might as well invent a completely different figure for your invented religion and leave Jesus to the Biblical Christians.
The way you lot carry on just confuses the issue about what a Christian is.

Blessings,

Simon

-- posted by siminspain

» paper_turtle - Bible as History (Simon)

In response to Bible as History posted by siminspain:

Did you even read what I wrote? And if you did read it, did you even pause, for one minute, to consider that I might have some valid points to make?
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Just where do I say anything about rejecting Jesus? I disagree with the literalist view of the Bible, but that does not mean I reject Jesus.
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With this in mind . . . I kneel in prayer to the Father . . . that out of the treasure of his glory he may grant you strength and power through his spirit in your inner being, that through faith Christ may dwell in your hearts in love. With deep roots and firm foundations, may you be strong to grasp . . . what is the breadth and length and height and depth of the love of Christ, and to know it, though it is beyond knowledge. So may you attain fullness of being, the fullness of God himself. (Ephesians 3:14, 16-19 NEB)
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Funny, I don't see anything here about what I think in my head. I don't see anything here about doctrinal purity. Instead, I am told that FAITH gives me "deep roots" and a "firm foundation." Faith, not doctrine.
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When Jesus was asked "What is the greatest commendment?" HE didn't say anything about doctrinal purity or what was in my head, either:
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Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. That is the greatest commendment, it comes first. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. Everything in the Law and the prophets hangs on those two commandments. (Mt 22:37-40)
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"Mind," in the passage above, refers to my thoughts--how I feel about people, the actions I contemplate, what I value--NOT my ability to pass some cosmic theology quiz.
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In post # 14, aobve, I say:
The Talmud encompasses much more than just Torah. It also refers Midrash, Mishnah, and Gemara--all of which are interpretations of text. This is important because it clearly points to a view of Torah which is NOT literal. The Jews viewed their scripture as instructive, not because it was literal but because of the truths it contained.
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Jesus spoke as a JEW. He understood scripture as a JEW. Christianity is founded upon Judaism. Jesus' view of scripture went along with what I described. Paul, originally a devout Jew, was also an excellent student of the Talmud (not just the Torah), and he says:
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All of these things happened to them as an example, and they are handed down to us as a warning . . . (1 Cor 10:11)
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Clearly Paul also believed that scripture contains verbal illustrations to help us figure out what we should DO.
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The way you lot carry on just confuses the issue about what a Christian is.
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With all due respect, this, to me is outrageous. The discussion, thus far, has been almost entirely confined to questions relating to what one has in one's head, not what one has in one's heart. Jesus said people would know who his followers were by their LOVE.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle