Protestantism

» pink101 - Should We Talk About It?

.
For myself, I have been dead set against any attempts by the government to take guns out of the hands of adult citizens in America.
.
But, I can understand there is a definite need to license gun ownership. What do you think, if any, the tests should include in order for an individual citizen to be lincenced to own a gun? Should the government impose limitations on who can own a gun?
.
Interestingly enough, I attended a gun and knife show this past Sunday.
.
.

-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Should We Talk About It?

In response to Should We Talk About It? posted by pink101:

I live in a rural area where many people hunt--and most of those *need* to eat they catch. My son-in-law is an avid hunter. I can't bear the thought of personally killing some wild animal just for sport, but I wouldn't take guns away from hunters.
.
I do not, however, believe there is *any* valid reason for an ordinary citizen to own a gun. Say what you will, I believe gun ownership leads to more death and destruction than we would have if guns were banned (or at least severely limited).
.
Failing that, I think there ought to be *much* more stringent guidelines reguarding who may own a gun. (And why in the world would an average citizen need more than ONE?)
.
peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - Gun Control

Let's be clear. This VA Tech gunman broke several gun laws. For one, I'm pretty sure that carrying a firearm on a college campus is illegal in Virginia. (Obviously, police and law enforcement folks are exempted). So, I think we're kidding ourselves if passing more gun laws is going to reduce gun violence. That's a liberal fantasy. The kids in the Columbine shooting broke something like 17 or 18 gun laws. Do you think another gun law or two would've stopped them?

And even if you outlawed ALL guns, what are we trying to stop? Violence against people or just GUN violence against people? What if this guy had used a bomb? What if he had stabbed 30 people to death instead of shooting them? (I'm aware that it would've been more difficult, but he would have simply changed tactics. It could've been done).

Legislating against tools or specific weapons is NOT the answer. It is a band aid. Now, before anyone asks, I am NOT a member of the NRA. I haven't fired a rifle or any other firearm since I was in the Virginia Army National Guard in the early 1990s. I'm not a gun nut. Just a realist.

» Migisi - Should We Talk About It?

In response to Should We Talk About It? posted by paper_turtle:
.
Interestingly, terrorists committed their horrendous acts on 9-11, killing and maiming thousands - with box cutters. Had somebody been armed on those planes....
.
Had just one of the Virginia Tech victims been packing on Monday...
.
How do we explain the increase in school shootings since the 80s? Do kids have more access to guns now than before gun laws? No. In fact, kids had unlimited access years ago, yet we never heard about school shootings.
.
What kids DO have far more access to now are prescribed psychiatric drugs, and of course illegal drugs. Several popular antidepressives (like Paxil, Ritalin, Prozac and Zoloft) are ~~KNOWN~~ to produce drug-induced mania in 6% of kids - bizarre, grandiose, highly elaborated destructive plans, including mass murder. It isn't a matter of the troubled kids NOT taking their meds, but that they DO take them, and often in combination with street drugs and alcohol.
.
Think on this:
---- Columbine shooter Harris was taking Luvox at the time of the shooting. http://www.breggin.com/luvox.html http://www.thedailycamera.com/shooting/3...
---- Thurston High (Springfield, Oregon) school shooter Kip Kinkel had been taking Prozac. http://www.cnn.com/US/9911/05/oregon.sch...
---- Wedgewood Baptist church shooter had been taking Prozac. http://www.star-telegram.com/news/doc/10... http://www.star-telegram.com/news/doc/10...
---- School shooter in Conyers, GA was taking Ritalin. http://users.erols.com/igoddard/conyers....
---- Granite Hills High School, Jason Hoffman had been prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor when he killed 5 students and teachers. ... [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox. http://www.InSightMag.com/archive/200105...

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Kids and guns

In response to Should We Talk About It? posted by Migisi:

.
Migisi wrote:
In fact, kids had unlimited access years ago, yet we never heard about school shootings.
.
Yes, there are many, many factors which have caused violence to escalate in young people. Drugs is one of the worst.
.
But I question your premise. When I was growing up NO ONE except hunters had guns, ever. And hunters kept their guns locked up except in hunting season. Only the children of hunters used guns. The rest of us weren't interested.
.
I would venture to say that throughout most of New England, going back a *very* long way in its history, gun ownership was mostly confined to hunters. Possible exceptions might have been those living in very remote areas where their closest neighbor might have been a bear or a catamount rather than a person.
.
peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Drugged out killer kids...

.
All quotes from:
.
The Creation of Senseless Violence,
Psychiatric Drugs,
and Kids Who Kill
http://www.uhuh.com/education/drugskill....
.
THE FOLLOWING ARE BUT A FEW EXAMPLES:
---- On May 20, 1988, Laurie Dann walked into a Winnetka, Illinois second grade classroom carrying three pistols and began shooting innocent little children, killing one and wounding five others before killing herself. Subsequent blood tests revealed that at the time of the killings, Dann was on a psychiatric drug of a class clearly shown to cause unexplained hostile and violent behavior.
----- On September 26, 1988, 19-year-old James Wilson took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school in Greenwood, South Carolina and started shooting schoolchildren, killing two 8-year-old girls and wounding seven other children and two teachers. Wilson had been in and out of the hands of psychiatrists for years and within 8 months of the killings he had been on several psychiatric drugs which can generate violent behavior. Since the age of 14, he had been given psychiatric drugs, including Xanax, Valium, Thorazine and Haldol.
----- On January 17, 1989, Patrick Purdy opened fire on a school yard full of young children in Stockton, California. During his vicious and unprovoked assault, Purdy killed five school children and wounded 30 others. Purdy then killed himself. During the two years prior to the murders of the Stockton children, Purdy had been on two strong psychiatric drugs of categories known to cause violence.
----- On November 20, 1986: 14-year-old Rod Mathews beat a classmate to death with a bat in the woods near his home in Canton, Mass. He had been prescribed Ritalin since the third grade.
----- 16-year-old Brian Pruitt, who fatally stabbed his grandparents in 1995, had a history of psychiatric treatment and had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
----- And in 1997 16-year old Sam Manzie raped and strangled another boy to death. He was under psychiatric "care" and was being "medicated".
.
Psychiatric drugs can cause violence; they can kill. These are facts that psychiatrists and the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) are not comfortable with. Psychiatrists for obvious reasons-- they could and should be held liable for a crime committed by their drugged out patients -- and NAMI because it "is awash in money from drug companies" -- $3.2 million per year from nine such companies -- that manufacturer these often crippling drugs.
.
Horror stories all. On the surface, the idea of tranquilizers or anti- depressants creating hostility and violence may not make sense. After all, they are supposed to make people calm and quiet. But the reality is that they can and do create this effect. The scientific evidence is overwhelming. The studies documenting this connection go back to the 1960s when we begin to see a rise of senseless violence.
.
A LITTLE KNOWN FACT: WITHDRAWAL FROM PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS
TURN PEOPLE HORRIFICALLY VIOLENT
The fact that these drugs are a recipe for violence is obscured because frequently after a violent crime has been committed, psychiatrists or their allied organizations such as the pharmaceutical company-funded National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI), blame the offending person's violent behavior on his failure to continue his medication, but the truth is that violence is a documented side-effect of withdrawal from psychiatric drugs.
.
In 1995, a Danish medical study reported the following withdrawal symptoms from psychotropic drug dependence: "Emotional changes: Fear, terror, panic, fear of insanity, failing self-confidence, restlessness, irritability, aggression, an urge to destroy and, in the worst cases, an urge to kill." (emphasis added)

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Kids and guns

In response to Kids and guns posted by paper_turtle:
.
Nobody in my family hunted. My dad's handguns and ammo were stored in his top dresser drawer, and everyone in the house knew it. Guns were there for self-defense/protection. Think Chicago, not a rural town where nobody locked their doors. We had access to those guns at any time.

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Drugged out killer kids...

In response to Drugged out killer kids... posted by Migisi:

But IMHO, the question is: WHY were all of those kids on psychiactric meds? I'm not at all convinced that the rate of mental illness is increasing that rapidly, so why were all these children being medicated? What was the *real* problem?
.
In any event, what about the people who die by a gun who are not on drugs, and who are not defending themselves? What about the children who are mained or paralyzed because some child thought it would be fun to wave a gun around?
.
What about the person who gets drunk and thinks a gun makes him really macho?
.
And, if the issue were a poisonous substance, would people be so willing to defend ownership and usage? Would they be so careless about keeping their guns out of their children's hands?
.
peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Drugged out killer kids...

In response to Drugged out killer kids... posted by paper_turtle:
.
But IMHO, the question is: WHY were all of those kids on psychiactric meds? I'm not at all convinced that the rate of mental illness is increasing that rapidly, so why were all these children being medicated? What was the *real* problem?
.
We're MADE kids nuts, Paper.
.
Let's imagine:
Mikey is a bit rambunctious, a tad overactive. Not a behavior problem per se, just being a healthy boy. Teacher can't, won't, or doesn't know how to, deal with his wriggling in class, and recommends a visit to the family doc for SEDATION. Rather than deal with behavior through distraction, discipline, or diet - hey, pop a pill in him. It's way easier to do that than determine what his *real* problem might be and actually do something about it.
.
Or maybe Bobby is having trouble comprehending Chemistry in second grade, therefore he must have ADD. Never mind that he has a lousy teacher. Place Bobby in special ed. He's teased and ridiculed by the mainstream kids. Bobby gets upset and unruly, and refuses to go to school, so doc prescribes an antidepressant.
.
Then there's Allison, who's become moody, argumentative, and uncooperative at home at the normal onset of monthly menses. Maybe she's a little depressed about having a big pimple on the tip of her nose. Oh no, we can't have that unsettling behavior!! Instead of talking it out with her, it's off to the doc for Prozac and Clonipin to 'stabilize' her. She'll be so much happier - as a zombie.
.
These aren't fictional kids. They're real. I know them personally. And it's the kid living next door to you. And it's a crying shame what we've done to the next generation!! We're paying for it on so many levels.

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Drugged out killer kids...

In response to Drugged out killer kids... posted by Migisi:

I know kids like that, too. One of my son's teachers had the gall to diagnose him as ADHD, and *insist* that we get him medicated. This about a child who could sit silently for hours listening to music or reading a book. To satisfy her, he had him tested. The doctor's comment: "What's wrong with this woman?" One family knuckled under to the same teacher. The kid dropped out as soon as he could, and has had numerous scrapes with the law. I wonder what might have happened if his parents had said no to her.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle