Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - the Status Quo

In response to Wrong Yet Again posted by pink101:

This is not an aspect of Jesus' ministry that I appreciated for many years. But seminary challenged me on this. I started doing some studies on the intertestamental period, and it opened my eyes to a lot of dynamics in the Judean culture.

I think the two best incidents in Scripture that illustrate Jesus' challenge to the establishment are: Jesus' response to the tax question AND his cleansing of the Temple. These are far from the only ones, but they are two of the best.

With the tax issue (see Matthew 22), you have two power groups approaching Jesus - the Pharisees and the Herodians. These two groups were normally antagonistic to each other, since Herod had no rightful claim to the throne. But they were united in their resistance to Jesus, because he challenged their influence with and power over the people. So, in order to protect their respective power bases, they came against Jesus trying to trap him (you know about traps ) with the tax question.

The Temple cleansing is the most blatant challenge to the religious establishment of that day, and the central charge that Jesus makes against it is that they have CORRUPTED the Temple. They turned the Temple sacrifice practice into a money-making enterprise. And the Temple had become something of a market, with money-changers and people selling different animals for sacrifice to patrons. It was akin to what the Catholic Church would do later in the selling of indulgences.
It was also blasphemous in that these money-changers and entrepreneurs (and the Jewish authorities of that day) had CHEAPENED and DISRESPECTED what the Temple was supposed to stand for.

There are all kinds of modern-day applications to these examples. I've talked about TV evangelists and some megachurches trying to PROFIT off the Gospel, for instance. But there are others.

Time will not permit me to continue. Well, actually, it's my stomach. It's lunchtime and I'm hungry. I'll be back later.

» pink101 - the Status Quo

In response to the Status Quo posted by BrianTubbs:
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Yes, I know about traps. And, I see you're not so dumb either:
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But [the priests] were united in their resistance to Jesus, because he challenged their influence with and power over the people.
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I challenge yours.
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:)
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Now, who's my example?
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Is it wrong to challenge you? Or Brother Jones? Or any one?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - the Status Quo

In response to the Status Quo posted by pink101:

I'm laughing out loud at this. Yeah, I really have a lot of power.

I think the key is: "Who benefits?" If a preacher or teacher USES the Bible or the Christian message to advance himself or herself, then a line has been crossed. If, however, we are utilizing the Bible to build GOD's kingdom (and not ours), then I think we're on the right track.

» pink101 - the Status Quo

In response to the Status Quo posted by BrianTubbs:
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The power you have over the youngsters and the easily swayed in your congregation is awesome. I guess we all know that fact of life.
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The status quo had it that ordinary human beings were unworthy to enter into the holy of holies. You KNOW that. The symbolism of not being able to enter into the that special place behind the veil goes deep into the Gospel Jesus taught. And, THAT is exactly what the priesthood's spokesperson were so wrought about when they plotted to get rid of Jesus. He DARED to impose his idea that ordinary people were capable of having a personal relationship with God by merely reaching out and taking hold of it--just like he did.
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That is central to the Gospel. And, it has nothing to do with going to Hell other than the fact, maybe hell would be a good place for the people Jesus came against. Those ones who harmed the "little ones" who Jesus drew unto himself in his ministry.

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Part of Jesus' message

In response to the Status Quo posted by pink101:

Pink, Jesus' message was indeed that ordinary people could reach out and lay claim to a relationship with God. You're 100% right about that. But...it doesn't stop there. HOW do people have that relationship with God?

That's when Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) You left out THAT part, which is rather important.

» pink101 - Part of Jesus' message

In response to Part of Jesus' message posted by BrianTubbs:
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That's right. Jesus gave himself to be the example so that others could lay claim to be at one with God. And, that's the thing that gets confused by so many who want to lay down a set of rules to be followed.
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Jesus stood up against the priesthood when it was unheard of knowing that they had power to destroy those who went against them.
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It's pretty simple. The priesthood is where the condemnation begins--they were the ones who condemned ordinary people. They were the ones who created the burden that was so heavy even they wouldn't carry it.
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But, like the Grand Inquisitor said in the Brothers Karamozov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Jesus puts too heavy a burden on the individual when he frees them to be responsible for their own self. People have a problem with that responsibility of relating with God on a one on one basis. They need a support group and a leader. Do you like Dostoyevsky?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Good points, but...

In response to Part of Jesus' message posted by pink101:

Once again, I find myself in a LOT of agreement with you. Legalism is actually easier than grace. In a legalistic environment, people can take comfort in following certain rules and rituals. But in a grace environment, you have to take responsibility not only for your actions but also your attitudes. And you know that what's at stake is a relationship, not merely a destination (i.e., heaven or hell). So, we're in agreement here to a large degree.

Where we differ is that I think it's pretty clear that Jesus is putting himself - the Son of Man, the Son of God - forward as the WAY to having that relationship with the Father. He's not putting himself forward simply as an example, but as a person. HE is truly (in every sense of the words) the "Way, the Truth, and the Life."

» pink101 - Good points, but...

In response to Good points, but... posted by BrianTubbs:
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But, don't you believe that Jesus in effect really says, "You can be just like me."?, and, "These turkey priests are trying to rob you of your rightousness that is your God given right!"?

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Good points, but...

In response to Good points, but... posted by pink101:

You're focused on what he was telling the priests and doing so in a way that fuels anger against the Jewish establishment of that day (and perhaps even today). That wasn't Jesus' objective. He didn't call for an uprising against the Jewish leaders. The important message is what Jesus has to say to us.

» pink101 - Good points, but...

In response to Good points, but... posted by BrianTubbs:
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You're misreading me.
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But, Jesus raled against the Jewish leaders and he told them they were like the inside of a sepulchre. There's nothing to defend on the part of the priesthood.

-- posted by pink101