Protestantism

» paper_turtle - Except through ...

In response to Except through ... posted by BrianTubbs:

Why **couldn't** it mean something *other* than One Way? Please, if you feel frustrated, consider that I do, too--because it would seem *both* of us perceive something as obvious and can't understand why the other can't see it.
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One Way feels new to me because I managed to live the first 20 years of my life never hearing anything about it--and I did a lot of research into spiritual beliefs as a teen.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - Followers of Jesus

In response to Except through ... posted by paper_turtle:

Can we at least agree that the original followers of Jesus - those who walked with him, knew him, listened to him - would have a better idea of his teachings than we would today?

» paper_turtle - Followers of Jesus

In response to Followers of Jesus posted by BrianTubbs:

Yes, I would agree with that. But (prepare to be frustrated again) ;-) the gospels were not written during the lifetime of any of the disciples. The information was passed down orally. Some of it got lost.
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That aside, though, this not knowing is one of the reasons I am so very skeptical of people who seem *positive* they have it right, and there is no other way of looking at things.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Beating A Dead Horse

In response to Except through ... posted by BrianTubbs:
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You're beating a dead horse, Brian.
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Anyone who understands first year algebra understands that X can equal Y and it can equal several other things as well.
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But, more to the point, we know emphatically that truth can evolve into greater and greater expressions of itself.
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Think of what has happened to the wheel because someone was able to think outside the box.
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You seem to be an advocate for never getting outside the box.
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Whoops! We're stuck back in prehistory with that kind of thinking.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Followers of Jesus

In response to Followers of Jesus posted by paper_turtle:

...the gospels were not written during the lifetime of any of the disciples...

Only the most liberal biblical scholars believe this, Paper Turtle. The Gospel of John is the latest of the four canonical Gospels. Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) agrees with that. Well, the discovery of the Rylands fragment (a copy of a portion of the Gospel of John - a copy found in Egypt) proves that the original was composed long before 125-140 AD (the date of the Rylands fragment). Most believe the Gospel of John was composed and circulated (in its final form) NO LATER than in the 90s AD. That is the LATEST of the four canonical Gospels. The other three - the Synoptics - were of course written before then.

» Brian Tubbs - You're mixing again

In response to Beating A Dead Horse posted by pink101:

Pink, you're mixing again. OF COURSE....innovations occur. New discoveries. New inventions. And so forth. And new realizations of how things work. Techniques. Strategies. Approaches to problems. I am not trying to stick anyone in the box in any of those areas.

However, historical events do NOT change. Either George Washington crossed the Delaware on Christmas Night 1776 - or he didn't. Either John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln to death at Ford's Theater or he didn't. Either Martin Luther King campaigned for racial justice or he didn't. Either Desmond Tutu led efforts to overturn Apartheid in South Africa or he didn't. Either Jesus rose from the dead - or he didn't. Either Jesus is the Son of God or he is not.

Some facts are what they are - and they do not change.

» paper_turtle - Reader-response theology

In response to Except through ... posted by BrianTubbs:

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Brian wrote:
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That's reader-response theology - where the reader determines the meaning and can change it at his or her will. I categorically reject that. I want to know what Jesus meant, not what I want him to mean. I'm honestly not trying to be condescending or judgmental here. Please don't take it that way.
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Brian, I can't speak for anyone else who believes as I believe about certain issues. I can, however state that I arrived at my beliefs through years of careful--and prayerful--study of the Bible. As of now, that amounts to more than 30 years. I do not decide upon the meaning of a passage because its Thursday and I have indigestion. I don't think most people do that--not if they are sincerely searching for truth.
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How do you know, within yourself, when something is true? I know something is true when it settles calmly within me, when I don't find myself saying, "yes but," when I feel no need to debate with it, and when it doesn't need 1000 points of evidence to shore it up and make it credible. (Truth is always elegant in its simplicity.) This new truth might very well be something I don't want to hear, but I accept it nonetheless.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Didactic

In response to You're mixing again posted by BrianTubbs:
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Good gracious, Brian....
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What on earth?
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Come on.
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Either you are from Virginia or you aren't? Let's see, I'll just bet that you can expand on your origins so that we can know more about where you came from than just "Ol' Virginny", right?
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There's more to the fact that Ford shot Lincoln than the black and white of it. There is much more information available. You are over simplifying the facts of what we're trying to get at here.
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For you to make it to be akin to heresy for someone to personify the Gospel is rediculous. Would it be acceptable to speak of Jesus being a personification of anything? What is your concern here? Why are you so opposed to persons using literary tools to explain their understandings about the divine? I'm suspicious of your didactical approaches to the things about God.
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - the writing of the Gospels

In response to Followers of Jesus posted by BrianTubbs:

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I wrote:
...the gospels were not written during the lifetime of any of the disciples...
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Brian responded:
Only the most liberal biblical scholars believe this, Paper Turtle. The Gospel of John is the latest of the four canonical Gospels. Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) agrees with that. Well, the discovery of the Rylands fragment (a copy of a portion of the Gospel of John -- a copy found in Egypt) proves that the original was composed long before 125-140 AD (the date of the Rylands fragment). Most believe the Gospel of John was composed and circulated (in its final form) NO LATER than in the 90s AD. That is the LATEST of the four canonical Gospels. The other three -- the Synoptics -- were of course written before then.
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In my personal collection I have three sources of information about the Bible. One is Catholic, one is Methodist, and one is general main-line Protestant (which tends to adhere to conservative interpretations with regard to doctrine). These are hardly what could be classified as very liberal.
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Here is what my sources said about the four Gospels:
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Matthew
all three agree Matthew was not written first. Two of them agree it was not the work of Matthew; the other states that it is highly unlikely that it was written by an actual eyewitness. My Methodist source gives the probable date of writing as circa 80-85 AD.
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Mark
all three agree it was written circa 64-70 AD--after the death of Peter. My Methodist source says it is a collection of traditions gathered by someone who was not an eyewitness.
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Luke
My sources differed on the dates for the writing of Luke. The earliest probable date was 75 AD; the latest, 95 AD. The opening statement (vss 1-4) clearly says the writer is passing down what he has gathered from others, not what he witnessed
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John
My sources agree with what you said
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Jesus died circa 30 AD. The earliest date for Mark is circa 64 AD. Jesus was around 30 years old when he died. It is logical to assume that his disciples would have been around the same age, give or take a few years. I believe the average life expectancy at that time would have been at most around 60 years. It therefore seems (highly) unlikely (to me) that any of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the actual events.
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This does not preclude the possibility that what was written was not based on oral accounts from eyewitnesses, but at this time there is no way of conclusively proving any of the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - the writing of the Gospels

In response to the writing of the Gospels posted by paper_turtle:
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Why do I have the impression that the Book of Mark was written first?
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Where does that come from?
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-- posted by pink101