Protestantism

» pink101 - Liberty Personified

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So, not only is the Gospel personified; but, her three daughters are as well. Isn't it interesting tht each is personified as a woman?
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Here is a quotation worth reading:
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ORIGIN OF THE IDEA
"In 1865, a little group of French men-of-letters, artists and politicians met at the home of Edouard Rene de Laboulaye near Versailles, France. Of all Frenchmen, only Lafayette had exceeded Laboulaye in his love for the United States, and it was said that the mantle of that hero descended upon his shoulders. Better than any of his countrymen, Laboulaye recognized the bond of a common love for liberty that existed between the people of France and the United States.
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"Although a subject of Napoleon III, this outspoken republican had in 1850 printed a discourse on the American Constitution and 'the utility of studying it,' had written a learned 'Political History of the United States,' a paper on the youth of Benjamin Franklin, and a novel, 'Paris in America,' in which a character says: 'The folly of love and the madness of ambition are sometimes curable, but no one was ever cured of a mania for liberty.' In the same book, liberty is described as the 'daughter of the Gospel -- sister of justice and pity -- mother of equality, abundance, and peace.'
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"It was decided that the French should give to the Americans some great token that would be a symbol of eternal friendship. This was to be a gift from a people to a people, not from a government to a government."
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I found this quotation at this link:
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http://www.endex.com/gf/buildings/libert...
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I urge every reader to think about this idea of Liberty.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Poetic License

The Gospel is:

*God sent His Son (Jesus) into the world to redeem mankind from their sins (John 3:16, Romans 5:8), and...
*Jesus is murdered on the Cross, taking upon Himself the sins of the world, and then rises from the dead (firmly establishing His deity and the completion of His sacrificial work)

The above is the Gospel. That's what it is. Whether you accept or reject the Gospel is up to you. But it is what it is.

The concern I have with this poetic reimagining of the "Gospel" is that it alters it or sidesteps it. No longer are we talking about Jesus dying and rising from the dead for the reasons He gave. Now, we are talking about some poetic ode to justice and mercy. It is poetic license, artistic license - it allows the reader or listener to redefine a historic event.

I'm not saying that metaphor and allegory are out of bounds. I understand the parable principle. Jesus used parables all the time. But the crucifixion and the resurrection do not constitute a parable from which we are to derive our own meaning. No. No. NO!!!!!! The crucifixion and the resurrection are actual historical events - the meaning of which have been defined long ago.

» pink101 - Poetic License--The Gospel Is:

In response to Poetic License posted by BrianTubbs:
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"The Gospel is:..."
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That's your interpretation of the Gospel. Mine is different. and we get our ideas out of the same book.
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I think that the Gospel is more to this point.
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1. The priesthood UNJUSTLY accuses humanity of being so sinful that all are condemned as unworthy of having a relationship with God.
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2. Jesus promoted the idea that ALL have the ability to own a relationship with God and that the Realm of God is within each the individual being for the taking.
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3. Because of that, Jesus was UNJUSTLY accused of commiting the capital offense of blasphemy.
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4. And, he was executed at the direction of the priesthood for daring to expose the priesthood for its false portrayal of humanity's value to God.
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5. By he willful self sacrifice on behalf of humanity, Jesus exposes the priesthood for what it is--a usurpation of truth.
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6. Humanity is set free from bondage to the lies inflicted on it from the priesthood.
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Or something very close to that. It has been obfuscated the organized religion and is not so easy to articulate. But, there it is.
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The above is the Gospel. That's what it is. Whether you accept or reject the Gospel is up to you. But it is what it is. Do you reject it? Brian? Do you?
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:)
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Poetic License

In response to Poetic License posted by BrianTubbs:

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The crucifixion and the resurrection are actual historical events -
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Got proof, other than the bible?

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Poetic License

In response to Poetic License posted by BrianTubbs:

Brian wrote:
The Gospel is:
*God sent His Son (Jesus) into the world to redeem mankind from their sins (John 3:16, Romans 5:8), and...
*Jesus is murdered on the Cross, taking upon Himself the sins of the world, and then rises from the dead (firmly establishing His deity and the completion of His sacrificial work)
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Brian, I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but just what, exactly, does the Gospel, as you have defined it, mean to any person in his or her daily life? And, more importantly, how does this change who a person is?
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Several posts back I indicated that using an allegory/metaphor such as personifying the Gospel could shed some light on how one goes about walking the walk. I still believe this is true.
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A fact is *just* a fact is if is divorced from its emotional/spiritual context. Sounds to me as if you want to keep the Gospel just a fact. Tell me about how it transforms hearts and lives.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - Transforming Lives

In response to Poetic License posted by paper_turtle:

If Jesus rose from the dead, that was absolute proof to his Deity. It was a supernatural attestation to the truth that Jesus was (and is) indeed the Son of God.

And, PT, the entire New Testament stands as an answer to your question about how that Truth (namely Jesus) can transform lives. We don't need a French metaphor to teach us about the Gospel. We have the four Gospel writers as well as the writings of Jesus' half-brothers James and Jude, and the writings of Peter, those of the Apostle Paul, and so forth. I don't see how some Frenchman can top that. Or anybody for that matter.

» Brian Tubbs - Evidence...yes

In response to Poetic License posted by Migisi:

Migisi, the only way to prove the resurrection beyond ALL doubt would be for us to actually SEE Jesus alive today OR to teleport back in time to the tomb at the time the event happened.

BUT...

This does not mean we can't establish the resurrection beyond a REASONABLE doubt. There is substantial evidence for it - more so than for other historical events (the assassination of Julius Caesar for example) which we accept as a fact.

» pink101 - Evidence...yes

In response to Evidence...yes posted by BrianTubbs:
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"...substantial evidence..."
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There is?
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:)
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Transforming Lives

In response to Transforming Lives posted by BrianTubbs:

And, PT, the entire New Testament stands as an answer to your question about how that Truth (namely Jesus) can transform lives. We don't need a French metaphor to teach us about the Gospel.
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No, that doesn't answer my question. I aksed how does the fact of the Good News--and that alone--transform lives? How does that one fact tell me how to walk the walk? Your answer brings in a whole lot more than just that fact.
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I've read my Bible. I'm very well acwuainted with it. As I see it the Good News is about much more than just cricifixion and resurrection.
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You may not feel the need to explore additional meanings (or layers of meanings) through "a French metaphor," but that does not preclude it having great significance in opening up the Good News for someone else. We do not all think alike.
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Its not about "topping" either. Its about finding the way that speaks to someone who hasn't understood before.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Evidence...yes

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Migisi, the only way to prove the resurrection beyond ALL doubt would be for us to actually SEE Jesus alive today
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Reminds me of a Joan Osbourne song...
"What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
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"If God had a face what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and in jesus and the saints and all the prophets..." You've heard it, yes?
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OR to teleport back in time to the tomb at the time the event happened.
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When you find a reliable teleporter, would you take me with you?
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This does not mean we can't establish the resurrection beyond a REASONABLE doubt. There is substantial evidence for it - more so than for other historical events (the assassination of Julius Caesar for example) which we accept as a fact.
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Okay. So, present the nonbiblical 'substantial evidence' to establish the resurrection beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm all eyes and ears.

-- posted by Migisi