Protestantism

» pink101 - Hitler

In response to Hitler posted by Migisi:
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"My Christian feelings show me my lord and saviour as a fighter who recognized these [insert your favorite bad guys here] for what they were and summoned men to fight against them."
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"In boundless love, as a Christian and a human being, I read the passage (in the New Testament) which tells us how the lord at last rose in his might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple broods of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the [insert your favorite bad guys here] poison. I realize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that he had to shed his blood upon the cross."
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Do these words sound like something a non-Christian would have made? What kind of a person would ever make such statements? In fact, who did make those statements and from where are they taken?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Hitler

In response to Hitler posted by pink101:
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What kind of a person would ever make such statements? In fact, who did make those statements and from where are they taken?
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If you haven't already read it, this article might interest you:
HITLER WORKING THE CHRISTIAN CROWD
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/hitlerworkin...
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(quotes):
"Another high ranking Christian theologian, Leutheuser, believed that the Holy Spirit moves where it chooses, and stated that, "more spirit of religion has come to Germans through Hitler, than through many of the churches." (Julius Leutheuser, Die deutsche Christusgemeinde, p. 18, 19). This same Christian leader asserted that "Germany has been given a mission from God. The leader and prophet is Adolf Hitler." (Siegfried Leffer, Christus im Drittem Reich der Deutschen, p. 13-18)...
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"The Vatican under Pope Pius XII made a Concordat of collaboration with National Socialism. Hitler's portrait was placed on all walls of Catholic churches and Sunday schools in Germany. Church bells rang at every Nazi victory, including the arrest and transportation of the last Jew from every town in Germany. The Roman Catholic Church never protested against Hitler's barbarism including the massacre of a million and a half Jewish children. (Dictionary of anti-Semitism, p. 43)...
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"Once presented with the truth, I have heard Christians say over and over that "he (Hitler) wasn't REALLY a Christian or he wouldn't have done those things." and I've heard "the church didn't REALLY understand Christianity or there would not have been the Crusades.... They *were* indeed Christians. ALL of them were Christians. They were the TRUE Christians...." (end)

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Hitler

In response to Hitler posted by Migisi:
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So, Migisi, can you tell me why it is that our fellow participants who claim to be so true to Jesus Christ will not want to deal directly with these questions regarding Christianity in Nazi Germany?
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - The foundation of evil (IMHO)

In response to Hitler posted by pink101:

I believe evil is founded on pride (in the Biblical sense)--in thinking I am not like them (Luke 18:11). No one likes to admit that they harbor darkness within them. But the truth is we are all capable of unspeakable acts, given the "right" circumstances.
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In the same way, even though we did not have any direct involvement in keeping slaves, or the holocaust, we share in the guilt, and hence, the responsibility to see to it that no one forgets, and that these things do not happen again.
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We cannot change anything for the better unless we are willing to come together with people who may have differing opinions. We cannot help another if we stand above (or below) him. We can only help him if we stand beside him.
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When we accuse, let us remember that we are also guilty, also fallible, also weak, also broken.
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Evil calls upon the ego, and the fire of evil is fed by fear, by the need to prevail at all costs.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - Not sure what you're looking for

Pink and Migisi (I exclude PaperTurtle from this, because I don't believe it applies to her)...

What are you trying to accomplish here? Do you believe that those today who profess to be Christians must take some kind of moral responsibility for OR somehow explain all those who have professed to be Christians in the past? Since Hitler made some statements favorable to Christianity in his rise to power, must I somehow accept some responsibility for explaining or feeling guitly for his barbarism? I suppose the same holds true for the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. I'm sure I'm leaving some things out, but the two of you will be happy to furnish a more extensive list. That's one thing I can count on from you.

Migisi, your list of quotations implies some kind of equation of Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, et al with Adolf Hitler. I hope that is not what you're suggesting.

This entire discussion has gone way off course and has gotten frankly ridiculous in its extremes. Ridiculous and offensive.

» Brian Tubbs - The foundation of evil (IMHO)

In response to The foundation of evil (IMHO) posted by paper_turtle:

Paper Turtle, I agree that we all share in the guilt for past sins ONLY in the sense that (as you say) we are all fallen, sinful human beings - and all capable of doing wrong (sometimes GREAT wrong).

I think of King David - the greatest king of ancient Israel and a man "after God's own heart" - who committed polygamy, adultery, murder, and gross abuse of power. He is not praised in the Bible for these sinful deeds, so they are not the reason he is referred to as "a man after God's own heart." But because he is a "man" (as in HUMAN), he is capable of sin - and indeed DID sin.

I think of America's Founding Fathers - great men. Yet many of them owned slaves. They were not great because they owned slaves - but rather in spite of it. Yet slavery remains a stain on their legacy.

Every person has flaws. Every person has sins. Myself included. I appreciate your candid and thoughtful comments.

» pink101 - The foundation of evil (IMHO)

In response to The foundation of evil (IMHO) posted by BrianTubbs:
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Paper Turtle, I agree that we all share in the guilt for past sins ONLY in the sense that (as you say) we are all fallen, sinful human beings - and all capable of doing wrong (sometimes GREAT wrong)."
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But, this is not about "past sins" as you so glibly attempt to pass the present activities of the Christian Right off.
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The problem is not what Hitler did or what the German Christians did during the 1930s. It is what is happening right now, here in this country.
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Being silent does not absolve any of us of guilt for what is going on in the present moment.
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The similarities between the fascists in Europe in their activities that led up to the rise of the Third Reich to its burst of power, and to the actions that are taking place in the word today are far too apparent for us to not speak up.
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At least men like Barth and Bonhoeffer stood up and repudiated the evil in Germany. Who stands against the evil in America? Who loves the open society in America? Who hates the open society? Go figure.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Hatred

In response to Hatred posted by pink101:

So, Albert Spear's mother would be representative of middle class America today?

It gets kind of risky to play with these kind of scenerios in history. I suppose many of us might think of some in the middle class in America as rich and shallow. I think the basic thing that comes across in reading about Albert Speer is the lack of any real emotional bond between his family members and later with his own wife. They all seemed to be just completely detached from each other and the world.
So, are you saying that these pockets of believers,as you call them, have glommed on to the idea of sexual proclibity to bring the rest of Christian Evangelicals into their bourgeois camp of middle class Americans?

I see very little growth in the camps of religious bigots. But there will always be people who reach out to these groups because they have been rejected by the mainstream for these kinds of hateful attitudes.

There was a group in Germany known as the "Confessing Church". Are you familiar with it?

You might want to refresh my memory.

That sounds a lot like something Hitler said about the Jews.

You have a habit of deflecting any criticism by resorting to historical accusations. Maybe Hitler would have said he loved the Jews if he had been allowed to drink more milk as a baby. It seems like you have a goal to relate each day to Hitler in some way.

And so does that.

No idea what you meant here.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Hatred

In response to Hatred posted by Brother_Jones:
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You have a habit of deflecting any criticism by resorting to historical accusations. Maybe Hitler would have said he loved the Jews if he had been allowed to drink more milk as a baby. It seems like you have a goal to relate each day to Hitler in some way.
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I think, by now, we all would have realized that Hitler was a tool used by the super monied classes.
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It doesn't take a lot of look see to recongize the influence big money had on Hitler. Hitler had a great social influence on the masses and the big money interests took advantage of that when they catapulted him into great celebrity status with the people. He had the exactly right words coming out of his mouth. He lost the war; but, the big money won--didn't they? And, they're still winning.
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I would like you to criticize my statements--challenge me--make me prove my points where you think I'm imagining things. But, when I come back with good evidence, I would like you to recognize that as well.
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My goal is to sound the alarm that America is in serious trouble and that it is being brought on by the intransigence of the moderate Christians who do not repudiate the fanatics like Fawlwell, Dobson, Parsley, Hagee, and Kennedy.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Not sure what you're looking for

In response to Not sure what you're looking for posted by BrianTubbs:
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This entire discussion has gone way off course and has gotten frankly ridiculous in its extremes. Ridiculous and offensive.
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The title of this thread is "Idea of Evil", is it not? This discussion is right on target. Sometimes we need to be reminded of extreme evil, lest somebody forget, or deny it ever happened, or refuse to believe that it can't happen again.
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Do you believe that those today who profess to be Christians must take some kind of moral responsibility for OR somehow explain all those who have professed to be Christians in the past?
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Really, the only thing ~I~ expect of any professing Christian is to face the facts that, yes, Christians did (and do today) instigate and partake in evil (yes, even extreme evil at times). For any Christian to declare that X is/was 'no Christian' implies that X was/is a nonChristian. Following that line of reasoning, this means that only nonChristians were/are involved in evil. That's what's ridiculous and offensive to me.
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Migisi, your list of quotations implies some kind of equation of Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, et al with Adolf Hitler. I hope that is not what you're suggesting.
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As Paper rightly suggested, everybody has a touch of evil in them which could grow and manifest given the right circumstances and support. That includes you, me, Robertson, Dobson, Falwell, Graham, Martin Luther, the Pope, etc. You think not?

-- posted by Migisi