Protestantism

» pink101 - The Fringe Element of Christianity

.
I was raised in the classical family environment heavily oriented toward what came to be known as Christian Fundamentalism.
.
I know--precisely--the way Christian Fundamentalism came into being in the part of America where I was born and raised. I know the experience intimately and can separate the blather from reality.
.
The church with which my family was affiliated broke away from a group affiliated with a modernist Baptist church. There were several core families in the break-a-way group, mine and some that had moved into Michigan's industrial Saginaw Valley area from Ohio for work with General Motors. These Ohioans were members of a group that had originated in Tennesee.
.
At the time, the advent of radio broadcasting was sweeping America. It might be a little difficult for present day Americans to realize that radio as a braodcast media was only in its first full decade during the 1930s. It provided a boom in communications that had only been barely imagined in the past. One of the major effects was the distribution of the Christian messages of various preachers.;
"*1900_1940 - The founding and proliferation of Bible Institutes with a Dispensationalist perspective; the growth of evangelical churches in spite of the modernist- fundamentalist controversy; the beginning of Dallas Theological Seminary with its premillenial, literalist view of Israel's future; the influence of powerful, politically active Baptist pastors like J. Frank Norris of Fort Worth, a strong premillenialist with a total church membership of 25,000; a wide radio ministry and a major paper; the rise of radio ministries led by Dispensationalists who believed in Israel's right to Palestine, involving such men as Charles B. Fuller, M.R. DeHaan, Theodore Epp and many, many others ... all of this enhanced the increasing mindset of America toward support of the Jews' aspirations and claims." (Retrieved from: http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php...
.
Two of these men directly influenced the development of the church group to which my family belonged--Charles B. Fuller and Frank Norris. It was popular in those days for travelling evangelists to visit communities in efforts to build local interest for church building activities.
.
My recollection, as a child growing up in this environment, reminds me of the Fringe Elements that grew in our congregation. As I recall, each occurance was part of a reacurring process in which ideas were sifted out and either accepted or rejected by the greater group. Funmdamentalist doctrine evolved this way. Each such Fringe Element seemed to be associated with different groups that were entering the congregation from the greateer local community--Nazarenes, Pentacostals, Spiritualists, Methodists, and others who came in as a result of the Revival meetings that were held by the travelling evangelists. I remember many evening meetings in which different persons would stand and give their ideas to the greater congregation. They either stayed and were integrated or they were ejected--one or the other. It was quite an active process.
.
The idea of the Fringe Element is nothing to scoff at. Actually, I think such groups as we see that have attained national prominence today such as those under the guidance of Robertson, Falwell, Dobson, Kennedy, Copeland, and many others of that ilk have grown out of Fringe Elements.
.
In the 1930s, they would have been repudiated and sent packing. Today, they are getting their fingers in a throttle hold on American Christianity--specifically they are exerting great influence on--not only--present day Protestantism in America but our politics as well. Who will stand and repudiate them?
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Migisi - The Fringe Element of Christianity

In response to The Fringe Element of Christianity posted by pink101:
.
Jesus and his followers were a fringe element of Judaism. Seems to me there will always be a fringe element who, through their zeal, will influence the development of new theology for Christianity. Religions seem to evolve (or devolve) with every generation.
.
Today, Liberal Christians are the fringe element being repudiated by the Fundies. Tomorrow, somebody else will bring a 'new' theology, form a fringe element, and today's Liberal will be considered a Fundy. As in Ecclesiates: What is, was. What will be, has been.

-- posted by Migisi

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - I'm Not Buying That

In response to The Fringe Element of Christianity posted by Migisi:
.
Jesus and his followers were a fringe element of Judaism.
.
I'm not buy that. I think it's a wolf ticket, if you know what I mean. I think it was the other way around.
.
The way I look at it and from a long time study of the subject both inside and out, I see Jesus as being at the core of Judaism. Don't minunderstand me. I see Jesus coming at the priesthood with a "let's get back to basics" message and they didn't like that one bit. They had taken the original revelations and turned them into a highly organized way of controlling the masses--they put the fear of god into the people. Jesus was all for taking that out of them.
.
I think there is a core message in Christianity and I think it is found in the life of Jesus--not in the preachings of the priesthood, neither of then or of now.
.
Were you situated at Urbana/Champagne when you taught? There are some great studies that came out of the Communications Department there under the guidance of James W. Carey. I don't think we can understand the message Jesus brought to humanity without gaining a good understanding ot the culture in which he moved. Actually, the two cultures in which he moved; the Jewishness of Jerusalem and the Jewishness of Egypt. Jesus did come out of Egypt, you know.
.
:)
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Migisi - I'm Not Buying That

In response to I'm Not Buying That posted by pink101:

.
I think it's a wolf ticket, if you know what I mean.
.
Actually, I'm not familiar with that phrase. Whatcha mean?
.
I see Jesus as being at the core of Judaism.
.
You're saying he was a devout orthodox practicing Jew, right? And that he was upset with those who'd corrupted the original doctrine of Judaism, yes? If that's so (and I'm not questioning it), then we should be studying and following Judaism to be more like Jesus. Yes? Does Christianity follow the orthodox doctrines of Judaism? No. Then how can Christianity represent the Jewish Jesus? Confused.
.
I think there is a core message in Christianity and I think it is found in the life of Jesus--not in the preachings of the priesthood, neither of then or of now.
.
Unfortunately, the only (alleged) records we have about Jesus' life and message were written by his 'priests' (the apostles, and Paul). If we are to disregard these priests, what could we know about Jesus message? What other sources do we have besides what they wrote and preached?

-- posted by Migisi

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - A Counterfiet

In response to I'm Not Buying That posted by Migisi:
.
:)
.
A wolf ticket is a dodge--a counterfiet.
.
No, I'm not saying Jesus was a devout practicing Jew; however, he may have been. How can we know?
.
I am saying that he came out of a different tradition of Judaism out of Egypt.
.
I don't believe the Bible is a reliable source of information about the times. I'm not going to champion any other teachings; but, I must say that the idea that the books of the Bible--Old Testatment especially--must be interpreted as literal documentation is questioned by many scholars. Of all the teachings that come out of Jewish thought, some of the most deeply respected are found in Kaballah. So, what I'm saying is that there are other ways of understanding than what comes down to us through tradition.
.
From the little (and I mean a very small amount) of what I've learned of Kaballah many questions are raised regarding the veracity of literal biblicism.
.
We definitely know that there were divisions in Judaism--sects. The Dead Sea Scrolls bring some of that to light. And, in juxtaposition to that we also know that the Catholic Church developed a very strong tradition of belief since its inception and other Protestant groups developed other traditions along the same and similar lines.
.
So, we're in a place where we cannot claim any single understanding. Many ideas and variations converge to provide us with opportunity for a better perspective than our ancestors had available to them.
.
But, more to the point. There is a thread that runs through many religions that relates to human ability to be one with the creator and it seems to be the main message Jesus brought and for which the priesthood was most upset.
.
Because, as you say, Unfortunately, the only (alleged) records we have about Jesus' life and message were written by his 'priests' (the apostles, and Paul). If we are to disregard these priests, what could we know about Jesus message? What other sources do we have besides what they wrote and preached? I don't think we DISREGARD them so much as we use discretion to search out the deeper truths that might otherwise remain hidden. We need to practice some sort of a transcendence. sometimes, our understandings are colored by the traditions. Maybe we can ignore the traditions and look straight on through them?
.
Just a thought.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Migisi - A Counterfiet

In response to A Counterfiet posted by pink101:

.
What a good post, Pink. I understand better what you mean. And thanks for the new phrase.
.
Of all the teachings that come out of Jewish thought, some of the most deeply respected are found in Kaballah.
.
Do you get the sense that Jesus knew the Kabbalah? I mean, ~really~ understood it? I'm having a heck of a time wrapping my mind around some of the concepts. Maybe the rabbis of his time didn't fully understand them either, and didn't intend to corrupt?
.

-- posted by Migisi

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Simon Davies - I'm Not Buying That

In response to I'm Not Buying That posted by pink101:

This is an interesting discussion.

Could I throw in my tuppence worth?

What you call fringe elements would probably consider themselves as returning to the core - that is usually how splits etc happen in the church.

Maybe that makes sense of Pink's comment that Jesus was wanting to return to the core of Judaism. I believe that Jesus was indeed the complete fulfillment of the Jewish scriptures, so the church was the true "core judaism" in that sense.

So all the break off groups from the Reformation thru the Wesleyan Methodists to the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland (Continuing) or whatever the latest one is called! - each one considers itself as returning to the core that the major group has left - sometimes rightly sometimes wrongly!

For what it's worth!!!

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Brian Tubbs - One Key in Discernment

When discerning what groups are "fringe" and what groups are not, one key is the following question...

Upon what does the group in question base its doctrine, set of beliefs, or theology?

If it's on some kind of "special" or exclusive "revelation," that's a red flag. Virtually all of the cults stem from this line of thought.

If, however, the group is claiming to subscribe to the core principles of its faith, then we should consider its case with an open mind.

Martin Luther did not want to break away from the Catholic Church. Like others, he believed in the universal (the original meaning of "Catholic") church, and accepted at face value that (for all its problems) the Catholic Church was still God's universal church. He realized, however, that the medieval Catholic Church had gone so far off course doctrinally and had become so corrupt that a split was inevitable.

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - One Key in Discernment

.
Respectfully to all three of you, I really don't think we can idenfity the Fringe Elements as going back to the core.
.
The ideas of Fundamentalism (capital F) came out of the ninteenth century millenialism. It is a little convoluted; but, anyone with enough patience can trace part of the movement, at least, back to the failures of prophecies that Jesus was coming on a date certain. In mid century, it wasn't uncommon for groups to sell all their earthly belongings and to gather on some hill or mountain to be caught up by Jesus at sunrise. Check it out, it's in the books.
.
The prophets based their prophecies on various biblical passages--mostly from the Book of Daniel. At the same time, Darwin released his work on Origin of the Species. Science was making big demands on beliefs in magic and superstition that so many people held. As we know, people like assurances that they can wrap their arms around and these new ideas were creating a lot of fuss in the minds of the otherwise faithful. The so-called Social Gospel had come to be the main stream of Christianity as it was portrayed in most churches. So, these prophets who were making mistakes about their predictions for the end of the world started to grasp onto the idea that the Bible was not the problem--it was the way different men interpreted it that was the problem. The Bible, they claimed, could stand up against all science and win hands down for it is the Revealed Word of God--inerrant.
.
By end century, most of the big fish of millenialism had died off. Around 1920, the word, Fundametnalism, first appeared in print. And, the ideas grew out of a series of publications known as the Fundamentals. By the 1930s, Fundamentalism was beginning to spread across the nation. All kinds of groups were beginning to gather with the more traditional groups that were breaking away from Modernism, i.e., the Social Gospel. These mainstream groups attracted different small time sects. I think those small time sects had members in them that began to spin off with what I'm referring to as the Fringe Elements. I didn't mean to be making reference to the phenomenon of the bigger splits that were so popular in the independent Baptist churches where the differences were mostly doctrinal based on such major concepts as Grace and Free Will.
.
Fundamentalism is a study in and of itself and very, very interesting. Dispensationalism is a major aspect of it.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - A Counterfiet

In response to A Counterfiet posted by Migisi:
.
Do you get the sense that Jesus knew the Kabbalah? I
.
I'm not so sure about that one way or the other. I know that Kaballah teaches that all things are from the creator. The atonement (at-one-ment) is the melding of human with god. That is one aspect of the Kaballah and of Christianity. So, it is a Jewish concept as well. Apparently the priesthood didn't always believe that.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds