Protestantism

» Twice__Pardoned - Defending the USA

In response to Defending the USA posted by paper_turtle:

I apologize for making a generalizing fallacy.

Most scholars do believe that the spike of Welfare is more closely related to the churches lack of involvement with the public services.

The church used to be a huge relief center for the poor etc... When the State starting pushing the churches involvement out it opened up a void and they filled it themselves. I truthfull don't think that the church is as much to blame as the ignorance of people in general though. The church is willing to help but usually requires peopleto go through formal programs created to 'truly' help them out... where the State has created programs that allow people to coniture making ignroant decisions and never get out of the rut, so to speak.

It's not an absolute but people are notorious for taking a buck and wasting it... especially if it's a free buck.

You and my mother both are a good example of people who have succeed against the odds but the truth is that most prefer to let the State handle there problems... It's "step 1" in government control.

-- posted by Twice__Pardoned

» pink101 - Barking At The Moon

In response to The Radical Elements posted by Twice__Pardoned:
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But freedom can be defined, Stephen.
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And, it has different definitions depending on who invokes the word. It most certainly must mean something for you otherwise you wouldn't have used the word to make a point. I asked you for a definition because you used the word and your responed with "I do not think I can define 'freedom' in any particular terms...". You can't do that. If you're going to us a word to make a point, you had better be able to define that word as to what it specifically means.
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Otherwise, you're barking at the moon.
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Freedom is a word that applies to the nationhood of America. It is central to the theme of America. If we're going to claim we are patriots, we had better be able to explain what it means. Our president is doing what he can to give it a particular definition. If we are to be concerned with our future, we had better understand what George W Bush means when he so frequently invokes the words, freedom and liberty.
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Do you know what he means whe he uses those words?
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Talk about defending the USA and not knowing what 'freedom' means doesn't make any sense.
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:)
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-- posted by pink101

» Twice__Pardoned - Barking At The Moon

In response to Barking At The Moon posted by pink101:

I'm not defending the USA.

I defend my freedom... and 'that' is mine. Definition: The way I live

-- posted by Twice__Pardoned

» Migisi - Defending the USA

In response to Defending the USA posted by paper_turtle:
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Most welfare recipients I know are poor divorced women with kids, and Daddy won't help with support. It's hard for some men to understand the need, and how humiliating it can be to be on government assistance. I hear ya, Paper. Been there.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Barking At The Moon

In response to Barking At The Moon posted by Twice__Pardoned:
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So, what do you mean by the word, freedom?
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A simple question that should be easy to answer. Is it something that belongs to you alone? Or do others have the same right to the freedom you give yourself?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Welfare

I have no problem with the concept of welfare. I think it's been abused and I think some more reforms are needed. But I have no problem with the government helping those people who are in need and who may not be able to fully help themselves. As our Founders explained, one of the purposes of government is to "promote the general welfare."

» HeadZenCards - Barking At The Moon

In response to Barking At The Moon posted by pink101:

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. I think it was Dick Nixon who said that...

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» paper_turtle - Welfare (Steve)

In response to Defending the USA posted by Twice__Pardoned:

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Steve wrote:
Most scholars do believe that the spike of Welfare is more closely related to the churches lack of involvement with the public services.
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The church used to be a huge relief center for the poor etc... When the State starting pushing the churches involvement out it opened up a void and they filled it themselves
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Which spike? When? I'd need to see some support for your contention.
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Have you ever read Angela's Ashes? There's a very compelling passage in that book about church-sponsored public assistance. The author's mother had to publicly humiliate herself to get a very small amount of money. I'm not saying all church-sponsored programs are like that, but I know some were.
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Here in Vermont, before government-sponsored public assistance, each town had an overseer of the poor. He was in charge of handing out money to those who asked for it. The name of every recipient, and the amount of money they received, was included in the annual report for all to see. I could be wrong about this, but I don't remember any church-sponsored public assistance programs prior to, or in addition to, what the overseer did.
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I truthfull don't think that the church is as much to blame as the ignorance of people in general though. The church is willing to help but usually requires peopleto go through formal programs created to 'truly' help them out... where the State has created programs that allow people to coniture making ignroant decisions and never get out of the rut, so to speak.
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You took one step forward when you apologized for your generalization, and then you took two steps back when you made the above statement. Many states, including Vermont, are now conducting all programs aimed as assisting the poor following a prevention model which does a whole lot more than continue the cycle.
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Still, its pretty galling to see welfare recipients referred to as ignorant. I'd invite you to come to Vermont, and spend some time in one of our depressed areas. I'd invite you to go on a job search with some guy who lives 20 miles out in the boonies and drives a car held together with duct tape and bailing twine. I'd invite you to talk to the people at the local food shelter, who would tell you than many people from the middle class are now frequent patrons.
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the truth is that most prefer to let the State handle there problems... It's "step 1" in government control.
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Personally, I think a little more government control with regard to a decent living wage, and a ceiling on the cost of living would be very welcome.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Barking At The Moon

In response to Barking At The Moon posted by HeadZenCards:
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Maybe it was Kris Kristofferson who wrote the song and Janis Joplin who made it popular.
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:)
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Probably.
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Welfare (Brian)

In response to Welfare posted by BrianTubbs:

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Brian wrote:
I have no problem with the concept of welfare. I think it's been abused and I think some more reforms are needed.
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Welfare abuse is a lot less prevalent than most people believe. (I know I have some figures somewhere to back me up, but can't locate them right now.)
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle