Protestantism

» Migisi - Chapter 4 summary - Migisi

In response to Chapter 4 summary - Migisi posted by paper_turtle:

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On the other hand, there's a possibility that at least some of those who toiled at building the temple felt they were doing something extremely worthwhile according to their religious and political values. The temple was a powerful symbol of the identity of the Jewish people.
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Post 380, I replied to your remark:
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Perhaps true for some of the Israelites. But not for the foreigners whom Solomon enslaved to build the temple. However, upon completion, they too could enjoy the fruit of their labors...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...
"When the Temple is completed, Solomon inaugurates it with prayer and sacrifice, and even invites non­Jews to come and pray there. He urges God to pay particular heed to their prayers: "Thus all the peoples of the earth will know Your name and revere You, as does Your people Israel; and they will recognize that Your name is attached to this House that I have built" (I Kings 8:43)."
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You wrote: "and goes on to say that there was resentment against Solomon during his rule."
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...
"Solomon's downfall came in his old age. He had taken many foreign wives, whom he allowed to worship other gods. He even built shrines for the sacrifices of his foreign wives. Within Solomon's kingdom, he placed heavy taxation on the people, who became bitter."
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I'll try hard to stay on track so we don't have to repeat ourselves again later.

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - Migisi posted by Migisi:

In message # 414 I posted Eccl 4:4-6

4 And I saw that all labor and all achievement spring from man's envy of his neighbor. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
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5 The fool folds his hands
and ruins himself.
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6 Better one handful with tranquillity
than two handfuls with toil
and chasing after the wind.
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Above is the NIV translation. The KJV renders verse 5:
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The fool folds his hands together
and eats his own flesh.
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I commented:

I don't think ALL "labor and achievement" are motivated by envy. We do many things simply because they are important to us, and not because we want to be better than someone else.
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What we do for personal satisfaction is more meaningful to us than what we do because of ego. This doesn't mean that personal deeds are selfish--we could derive great satisfaction out of serving lunch in a soup kitchen, or playing with children in a shelter for abused women. Personal deeds, done in the privacy of our own homes, could also include prayer, meditation, or other spiritual pursuits.
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The ego is never satisfied, anyway. It always wants more. But a grateful heart can make a banquet out of a piece of toast.
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Migisi--your response to this is in post #421

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» HeadZenCards - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by paper_turtle:

I don't mean to jump ahead but the following may help your understanding about the author and his findings.

Ecc. 7:26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.

7:27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

7:28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.

Feed your need for the obvious here: http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/

and save your female psyche the pounding. Or not. It's up to you. Enjoy the day in any event.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Migisi - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by paper_turtle:

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Pink post #429 brought us up to here, and we discussed:
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7 Again I saw something meaningless under the sun:
8 There was a man all alone;
he had neither son nor brother.
There was no end to his toil,
yet his eyes were not content with his wealth.
"For whom am I toiling," he asked,
"and why am I depriving myself of enjoyment?"
This too is meaningless-
a miserable business!
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-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by Migisi:

Phil, commenting on the above, wrote:
I think I've known people like this one. But, isn't it said to be true that work gives meaning to life? And, what about the "family of man" doesn't that enter into our picture?
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and (in post 430) I responded:
Yes--a person can be all alone even if he has many friends and is the member of a large family. Conversely, a person living a solitary life can feel lovingly connected to all of humanity.
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Here the author is expressing the disconnect I mentioned in a much earlier post. Such feelings of isolation arise, I think, from a sense of personal inadequacy (and purposelessness and helplessness).
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Our life's work *can* add meaning to our lives, but if we derive all (or most) of our sense of identity from our job, we lose sight of other things which could also add depth and meaning to our lives.
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A solitary person can derive great satisfaction from his work, but its still much more rewarding to share one's work with another. One of the must difficult things about being a writer/artist is that I work alone, and many people just don't have a clue how much real hard work is involved. There's no one to "talk shop" with.
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We are part of the family of man, but without a spiritual frame of reference this connection can become just an abstract idea. To keep our sense of relatedness, we need to RELATE, lovingly and generously.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by HeadZenCards:

Ollie--

Thanks, but we're (trying) to take it a bit at a time, in the order it is presented, as any first-time reader might.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by paper_turtle:

In post #439, in response to redback:

redback wrote:
The responses I read here flow on ie there are things we can do to change our attitude and actions. The fact Solomon apparently does not exhort this is another matter.
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I responded
I think Solomon does, *eventually,* suggest a different path. My take is that he is trying to present a picture of a POV which is not altogether what he really believes (or may represent what he has thought at times--as have we all, I would venture).
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Modern readers are impatient. They want to get to the point quickly, without all the frills and explications. The readers/audience of people in the time of the author had a great deal more patience. They loved long, complicated literature. They liked to ponder things slowly, savor each word and phrase.
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But simply paraphrasing Solomon's dismal musings seems a futile exercise.
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I'm a poet. I've taught poetry. I think Ecclesiastes needs to be approached like poetry. First those discussing it want to share their understanding of the words themselves before digging for the message beneath the words. Here in this discussion we don't always dig for the message(s) beneath, but that doesn't necessarily mean the words do not continue percolating in the mind/spirit to produce insight at some later date.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by paper_turtle:

In message #454 I presented Eccl 4:9-12:

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9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their work:
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10 If one falls down,
his friend can help him up.
But pity the man who falls
and has no one to help him up!
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11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?
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12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.
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I then commented;
This reminded me of this passage:
"For where two or three have met together in my name, I an there among them." (Mt 18:20)
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Which in turn remended me of the saying:
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"When two sit there and between them are the words of the Torah the divine presence (Shekinah) rests upon them." (Pirqe Abot 6:6)
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No man is an island. We need to be in relationship with others--and, as the passage from Eccl implies, it needs to be intimate, in the sense of being real, and honest, and straightforward. Real relationship means understanding we are all connected.
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We gain inner/spiritual strength from focusing on our relatedness to all of humankind.
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If we do not connect, we remain isolated within our own egoes, subject to alienation, purposelessness, and despair.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» HeadZenCards - Chapter 4 summary - PT

In response to Chapter 4 summary - PT posted by paper_turtle:

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» paper_turtle - Chapter 4 summary - PT (oops)

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I'm reposting this, because I discovered (too late) that I had neglected to properly label a quote from redback.
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In post #439, in response to redback:
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redback wrote:
The responses I read here flow on ie there are things we can do to change our attitude and actions. The fact Solomon apparently does not exhort this is another matter.
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I responded:
I think Solomon does, *eventually,* suggest a different path. My take is that he is trying to present a picture of a POV which is not altogether what he really believes (or may represent what he has thought at times--as have we all, I would venture).
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Modern readers are impatient. They want to get to the point quickly, without all the frills and explications. The readers/audience of people in the time of the author had a great deal more patience. They loved long, complicated literature. They liked to ponder things slowly, savor each word and phrase.
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redback wrote:
But simply paraphrasing Solomon's dismal musings seems a futile exercise.
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I responded:
I'm a poet. I've taught poetry. I think Ecclesiastes needs to be approached like poetry. First those discussing it want to share their understanding of the words themselves before digging for the message beneath the words. Here in this discussion we don't always dig for the message(s) beneath, but that doesn't necessarily mean the words do not continue percolating in the mind/spirit to produce insight at some later date.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle