Protestantism

» dancooper - Well (purpose of:)

In response to Well (purpose of:) posted by Migisi:

Hello Pink,

I stopped by earlier today to try to contact you about a question I have, and found it difficult to track you down in the Suite's "new (again) and improved (again)" mode of presenting discussions, or not presenting them, as the case may be. Oh, well, what else can be expected from the suite these days?

Anyway, if I can successfully post this (which may be more than I should hope for) I intend to ask you this question: Do you have a list or source you can easily consult, that I might inspect, which cites specifically religious reading material? I have an idea that I have been playing with for some time now, and may be ready to put it into action.

As you may recall, I have been seeking a solid foundation (or at least a suitable foundation) on which to base one's religion in this millenium. I have been looking at various religions for quite some time, and have been sorely disappointed with Christianity (my original religion from my inexperienced childhood). You probably recall some of my earlier discussion posts.

Anyway, to make a long story a bit more bearable, I have this notion of reading and reviewing a variety of sources from the viewpoint of an unaffiliated and somewhat skeptical seeker. I would be interested in finding the strengths and weaknesses of many various viewpoints, and (it is hoped) distilling a conscientious observer platform from which to offer advice in selecting reading material for the neophyte religious seeker in today's world.

I have already read a lot of religious material, and will re-read those most closely meeting my yet-to-be-defined criteria. But what pushed me over the edge lately, was stumbling upon a book on my own shelves, that purely and simply appears to be a wonderful starting point for the analysis of Christianity. What I am hoping for is advice on similar (or divergent) material that is equally deep and meaningful, and not belligerently bludgeoning in its presentation.

To be sure, I have found a number of those kinds of books, the belligerently bludgeoning ones, and I will certainly devote some time to criticizing their biases. But What I hope to find are books that are far more difficult to criticize, far more interesting, and far more effective in presenting a consistent, well thought out, at least marginally objective and well stated insight.

I am sure that these exist, and although they might be clearly in the minority-especially in the subject area of religion-I would hop that there are enough of them to build a "recommended library" for the religious seeker of today. Anyway, that's my project in a nutshell. I was hoping you could suggest some reading material.

To give you some idea of what I have read and intend to review so far, here is a brief synopsis. I have read, and have been favorably impressed with a couple of Josh McDowell's books, but have found some fatal flaws that leave the doubter with some questions that are ineffectively answered. Another book that reveals a very simple explanation of the Christian religious perspective is A Search for the Spiritual, by James Emery White. But it is far more easily criticized than the Josh McDowell books, and is riddled with fatal flaws.

Two more that I intend to review are The Cult Explosion, by Dave Hunt, and Radical Theology and the Death of God, by Altizer and Hamilton. Both of those will be fairly easy to dispatch as lesser material, not exemplifying the best of available literature.

Those are just a few examples. The more impressive one I "found" on my own shelves recently is Behold the Spirit by Alan Watts. I am embarrassed to admit that I have had this book for years and never read it. But due to some illness recently with bouts of the flu, I have increased my bedridden reading time and "discovered" the book just sitting there waiting for me (to get sick enough to actually read it??). I have read about one third of it and find it to be a marvelous explanation of Christianity from a Roman Catholic perspective. I was raised a Protestant, and have never before heard anything like the highly effective arguments for Roman Catholicism and therefore somewhat against some of the ideas of the Protestant Reformation, as I have found in this book. It also very effectively ties modern philosophical thought into the discussions. Most interesting reading... I was also wondering if you had ever read it.

Any ideas on this project would be gratefully appreciated. Admittedly, it will be no small project. And another angle I wanted to approach here was to inquire if you (or others) had encountered a similar attempt (in any respect) by anyone else to do what I am proposing. In other words, do you know of a book or Website that offers similarly comparative reviews of religious literature? If so, what are your opinions of the reviews and of the objectivity of the reviewer? I don't really need to spend time trying to reinvent the wheel if all this has been effectively accomplished elsewhere.

Help?

Dan Cooper

-- posted by dancooper

» pink101 - Dan Cooper

In response to Well (purpose of:) posted by dancooper:
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Dan!
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Old home week! Isn't it always a treat to hearfrom people out of our past? It is for me.
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But I am embarrassed that you would single ME out to ask about books. Maybe I'm the only one you recongnize?
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There are so many books. I don't know; but, books come to mind. They aren't what anyone might call religiousd books although they deal witht he subject in some way. You want books that leave the decision making up to the reader, I'm sure. Or are you looking for someone to SELL you on a belief system?
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Spong, in my mind is an important source in a certain sense. He represents liberated belief. Some books I think have contributed to my understandings are: http://www.amazon.com/Battle-God-Karen-A...
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http://www.amazon.com/Templars-Dramatic-...
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http://www.amazon.com/Freethinkers-Ameri... ;
http://www.mugjoint.com/closet/bookdescr... .
Aside from those I quickly pulled off my shelfs, there are many, many more. I think a good review of history helps us see how religion has evolved over the years. Also, have you ever given any serious thought to the teachings of Kaballah? I can direct you toward some very interesting inquiries there.
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I hope you stick around and enjoy the reparte'. We have some quite good participants. I expect you'll be hearing from Brother Jones with your inquiry.
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Generally, where are you hailing from?
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-- posted by pink101

» dancooper - Dan Cooper

In response to Dan Cooper posted by pink101:

"But I am embarrassed that you would single ME out to ask about books. Maybe I'm the only one you recognize?"

Well, I did single you out. I remember you as one who reads, who has opinions, who shares them, and who considers himself to be liberated in some sense from the conventions of a more traditional and more rigid fundamentalism. But you are right about being the only one I recognized by name, too.

"You want books that leave the decision making up to the reader, I'm sure. Or are you looking for someone to SELL you on a belief system?"

You probably remember me as a rather hard sell, and that is still true. But if somebody can sell me on a belief system I would be interested in hearing from them. Not that that is terribly likely, you understand, but interesting as a possibility, yes indeed. I would prefer books and viewpoints that at least try to leave the decisions up to the reader.

"Spong, in my mind is an important source..."

Yes, I need to read some of his work. What would you suggest as his most effective two or three, and in what reading order?

"[H]ave you ever given any serious thought to the teachings of Kaballah? I can direct you toward some very interesting inquiries there."

I could use some direction in that area, as I have given it no consideration at all to this point.

"I think a good review of history helps us see how religion has evolved over the years."

History in general is a great teacher. I only wish we could learn from it more readily. From the standpoint of religion, history is one of the most influential sources for the origins and development of all religions.

"I hope you stick around and enjoy the reparte'. We have some quite good participants."

I would enjoy getting back into the discussions, and will try to do that. That is, if Suite isn't canning the whole discussion thread thing in favor of saving band width or some such thing. I certainly would not put Suite past that sort of thing.

"I expect you'll be hearing from Brother Jones with your inquiry."

That would be great. I enjoyed a number of his posts way back when.

"Generally, where are you hailing from?"

Geographically, I am still rather stuck in South Texas. If you are talking about my frame of reference mentally, I am still a seeker by my own definition, having found nothing that really hits the target from a spiritual standpoint. That is one reason for my idea of delineating a source list of reading material for the serious seeker in the twenty first century.

-- posted by dancooper

» pink101 - Kaballah

In response to Dan Cooper posted by dancooper:
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I think you can read any Spong and get the gist of what he teaches--a liberated gospel with an emphasis on the believer's responsibilities for their relationship with God. I like that part.
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Kaballah? Yes, here is a link with a great deal of information. All you need is a Windows Player with speakers and you can watch and listen:
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http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/kabbalah...
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Click on "A Basic Overview" and then on forward icon for play. Sit back and relax.
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I find it very interesting. I have purchased several books and they are in the mix from which I draw. :
South Texas, yeah, I remember now. Jones lives downt there; but, I hear he came to Michigan recently to visit his new grand child.
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Nice to have you back.
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:)
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Later.

-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Dan Cooper

In response to Dan Cooper posted by dancooper:

Geographically, I am still rather stuck in South Texas.

I've been to South Texas, and it is not as fun as the Hill Country, I don't think.

Good to see you back, Dan. I remember you quite well. I believe you might have missed our go around awhile back in the book of Acts where we saw various points of interest expressed about whether the Spirit can fall upon men and the other gentler ones. It is possible that we can regain the ground back to the high water mark where some of us decided that the followers of Christ actually had some fiery toungues on and in their head.

I would add the bible to your reading list as a reliable source of info about Jesus.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» dancooper - Kaballah

In response to Kaballah posted by pink101:

Spong: Thanks, I will see what I can find and give him a read.

Kaballah: I went there last night but was too tired to stay. Thanks, I'll check it out.

"South Texas, yeah, I remember now. Jones lives down there; but, I hear he came to Michigan recently to visit his new grand child."

Interesting on two levels: I, too, have just been given my first grand child, born 01/02/07. I didn't remember Brother Jones living in Texas, let alone South Texas.

Thanks, it is nice to be back. Although my level of participation will probably not be as high as it used to be, I will enjoy getting into the mix again when the discussions pique my interest.

-- posted by dancooper

» dancooper - Dan Cooper

In response to Dan Cooper posted by Brother_Jones:

South Texas/Hill Country: Actually, I use the two terms interchangeably, although I know many do not, preferring to distinguish the Rio Grande valley as "south" and the Hill Country-just north of there-as a separate region. I live in the Hill Country.

"It is possible that we can regain the ground back to the high water mark where some of us decided that the followers of Christ actually had some fiery toungues on and in their head."

Yeah, I missed all that. If I get a chance to look it up I will. Do you recall which thread it was? [Can you still look up prior threads on the Suite, or have they brilliantly done away with all that, too?]

"I would add the bible to your reading list as a reliable source of info about Jesus."

I certainly can't argue about the fact that it is the most thorough source on Jesus and on Christianity's origins. In that respect it is a 'no brainer' as a source.

But the books on my reading list are going to be ones I critically examine for veracity, communication consistency, the completeness of their message, and their usefulness for the beginner as well as the experienced researcher/seeker in delving into a particular religion. While the Bible certainly meets a number of those criteria, it is highly disputed on some others. And since my approach is going to be highly critical, I think I should leave it alone for the time being and concentrate on secondary sources that claim to "explain" the Bible's message, or Christianity's message, or whatever some other religion's message may be.

And the Bible has also been hashed and rehashed so thoroughly already that I figure I can afford to let previous commentators have their say, and comment on THEIR comments as an aid to the seeker interested in researching the Bible. That book is certainly no cake walk of a read, and the difficulty in reading and interpreting it are already well known by most everyone. Plus, I know how much difficulty I have personally had in trying to interpret the Bible, so I hesitate to try to tell anyone about its message. That fact, added to all the controversies by all the alleged authorities on its message, leave me little choice but to limit my examinations to the words of those so-called authorities.

-- posted by dancooper

» pink101 - A Great Little Book

In response to Dan Cooper posted by dancooper:
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You might want to add a great little book Chris Hedges has recently written, American Fascists, I'm just getting into very nicely. Here is a link:
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http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-...
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He has much to say about the Christianity of such men as Falwell, Dobson, Kennedy, Robertson, and others.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Kaballah

In response to Kaballah posted by dancooper:

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have just been given my first grand child, born 01/02/07.
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Congrats, Dan!! Not that you had anything to do with it... tee hee. You're gonna love being grampa. It's a new hat for you to wear. Boy or girl?

-- posted by Migisi

» siminspain - Dan Cooper

In response to Dan Cooper posted by dancooper:

Dan,

I'm new around here but for what it's worth, if you've found Josh McDowell useful, maybe you could try some of C.S.Lewis' books.

Also dated but still very useful is Francis Shaeffer - he is worth reading in my opinion.

All the best in your search!

Simon

-- posted by siminspain