Protestantism

» pink101 - Civil War

In response to Civil War posted by BrianTubbs:
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Because yer down here!
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Certainly. A major contributing factor. That's what insurgencies are almost always all about. Don't you suppose that's what upsets many of the Iraqis.
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But, anymore, it seems it has to go without saying that the first casualty of war is ....
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Right?
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - Iraq

In response to Civil War posted by pink101:

You're right. The longer an occupation goes, the more restless and embittered the occupied become. The stronger the insurgency becomes. That's a BIG part of what's happening in Iraq now. A LOT of Iraqis welcomed us as liberators, but we've out-stayed our welcome.

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» pink101 - Iraq and God

In response to Iraq posted by BrianTubbs:
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I think this war is about killing people.
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I think World War II was about containing a political movement that would have changed the course of Western Civilization. Hitler was on the attack as was General Tojo. Maybe the both of them were provoked into war? I don't know. I've had long conversations with people who have claimed that Hitler was trying to right a wrong that had been done to the German people. That always seemed like an over simplification to me. And, similar things were said about the Japanese with what was known as the Yellow Embargo. But, I still don't know. Things get pretty complicated and confused after a few years. I have an idea American people want their innocence back and I sincerely believe there will be a backlash against the free wheeling attitude our politicians have expressed during our life times.
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I want to live in a world where peace is given due respect. I hate the warring. If God has a plan that includes destroying a people, let [Him] be responsible for the slaughter and destruction. I don't want it done in my name. I don't want the blood on my hands. If God wants to punish people because of the chance of their birth, let [Him] do the dirty work on [His] own. {He] doesn't need my support.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - Doesn't make any sense?

In response to Iraq and God posted by pink101:

So, by reiterating your statement "I believe this war [the Iraq war] is about killing people," are you ACTUALLY saying that George W. Bush and company got us into this mainly because they wanted to go "kill some people."

With all due respect, that's the craziest thing I've heard in a long time. Do you HONESTLY believe George W. Bush wakes up each morning and asks: "Who can I kill today?" Come on, Pink.

If what you're saying is that all we're accomplishing over in Iraq is killing people, well, then we can discuss that. I would say that's pretty much all we accomplished in Vietnam, although it wasn't our objective. We TRIED to save South Vietnam from falling under communist domination, but we failed. And thus - at the end - what we had to show for our efforts were dead Americans and dead Vietnamese.

This is one reason why i don't want to just abandon Iraq like we abandoned South Vietnam. Once we commit, we need to see it through to victory. If we need to change our strategy, fine. But let's not throw in the towel because things get tough or protracted. We got ourselves into Iraq. We need to finish the job - and THEN leave.

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» pink101 - Good Money After Bad

In response to Doesn't make any sense? posted by BrianTubbs:
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The Viet Nam war was one of the most confused situations the world has known. I was in college when it was raging. I was very knowledgeable about it. Your take is wrong according to the records as I know them to be.
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Can you describe what victory will be in Iraq? Has it been explained to us by our gummit?
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It looks like you're advocating that we throw good money after bad.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - Good Money After Bad

In response to Good Money After Bad posted by pink101:

I've looked at Vietnam as a historian, not as one who lived through it. So, there are aspects of the Vietnam war and of that time that I won't be able to understand to the same level as you. Nevertheless, I think I can say, based on my studies, that I have a decent handle on the Big Picture of it.

As an anecdote, back when I was a teacher, I invited a Vietnam veteran to come talk to my US history class. It was a 90-minute session. I took the first 45 minutes and spoke on the Big Picture and then turned it over to him - to talk about what life was like at that time, from his perspective (in particular) as a soldier in the war.

He later complimented me (very profusely and sincerely), saying that I captured the essence of the period very well. Now, I don't know his politics (whether he's Republican or Democrat), but I appreciated his compliment.

I think the United States blundered into Vietnam, but it had the right heart in doing so.

The "Big Picture" at that time was that the communists were gaining in the world - and this was bad for the world (in terms of democracy, freedom, human rights, and - yes - economic opportunity) and bad for US interests (and some of those 'interests' were legitimate security concerns). Since World War II, the communists had taken Eastern Europe, North Korea, Cuba, China, and had made significant inroads in other parts of the world - including Latin America, Indonesia, Africa, and other parts of Asia. The US was committed to the Truman Doctrine of "containment," and thus wanted to STOP the communist takeover of Southeast Asia.

From the "Big Picture" standpoint, this was a valid and correct concern.

However, as was the case in 2002 Iraq, the US had a poor understanding of the grassroots situation in Vietnam. We didn't fully understand or appreciate the self-determinism that was flowing through the Vietnamese people, and we were so focused on the Cold War that we didn't see and appreciate the CIVIL WAR we got embroiled in there in Vietnam.

There are a lot of similarities. We didn't think it through, and we paid the price. And, to make matters worse, the US government tried to "manage" the escalation in Vietnam in such a way that they concocted false pretenses for our being there and misled the American people. And when it came to the Good Reasons for being there, they were poorly articulated - if at all. They therefore lost the trust and confidence of the people - and, well, the rest is history.

I see A LOT of similarity with Iraq right now. We invaded and took out Saddam, I think, for the right reasons. It was NOT (contrary to what you, Migisi, and Wendell say) about "killing people" or about making the oil companies rich or giving Bush more power. It was frankly about (first and foremost) replacing a dangerous and unpredictable dictator who had the potential and desire to threaten US security and destabilize the entire Middle East region.

But...our intel was flawed. Our knowledge and appreciation of the situation - of the MidEast, Arabic culture in particular - was poor. And we didn't think through the Big Game Plan.

And as for articulating the reasons for the war, they were out there - for people to see - IF they read all of Bush's speeches word-for-word. But, in our sound byte culture, all people got was what Bush emphasized - WMD. And, well, we didn't find any WMD. So, that undermines the trust and confidence in the government.

A lot of similarities. Once again, shows the importance of history. If we don't learn our lessons, we're doomed to repeat them.

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» pink101 - Cardinal Spellman

In response to Good Money After Bad posted by BrianTubbs:
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That does seem to be the line, doesn't it?
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Check this out, Brian. I think if you key Cardinal Spellman and Viet Nam into your search engine, you might get some feedback. I think Cardinal Spellman's brother was in Hanoi of all places. I knew a guy who was in the first group to go into VietNam. The war had a lot to do with Catholocism. Like I said, it was a very confused situation.
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What the heck. Check it out. You never know, you might learn something.
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:)
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-- posted by pink101

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» Migisi - Doesn't make any sense?

In response to Doesn't make any sense? posted by BrianTubbs:
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We TRIED to save South Vietnam from falling under communist domination, but we failed.
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And guess what? We support that cruel communist regime today. The US sends roughly $40 million in foreign aid to Vietnam every year.
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But that's nothing ... in 2006, the US sent $482 million in aid to the former SOVIET STATES - yep, our old 'cold' war communist enemies.
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But that's a pittance compared to what Israel and Egypt get from the US. They receive ONE THIRD of ALL US aid - most of it going for armaments, not humanitarian purposes. And get this: we sent $461 million to Jordan in 2006 just so Jordan would leave Israel alone. (Stats from http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics... )
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How much foreign aid did we send to Sadam before he fell out of our favor? And how much aid to bin Laden to fight the Russians?
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None of ~this~ makes any sense to me. I would think that all that foreign aid could be better spent here at home supporting our poor, rebuilding New Orleans, maintaining our infrastructures, and supporting our Vietnam and Iraq veterans instead of cutting their benefits, etc.

-- posted by Migisi

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» pink101 - Doesn't make any sense?

In response to Doesn't make any sense? posted by Migisi:
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By the way, this line from Brian's post is just plain nonsense and not true at all:
We TRIED to save South Vietnam from falling under communist domination, but we failed.
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The records are quite clear about what happened there. Easy to learn the truth of 'Nam for anyone who is seriously interested and hasn't closed their mind to the B.S. rhetoric.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Migisi - Doesn't make any sense?

In response to Doesn't make any sense? posted by pink101:

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By the way, this line from Brian's post is just plain nonsense and not true at all:
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Yes, I know. Amazing how some people can swallow so much nonsense without choking.

-- posted by Migisi

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