Protestantism

» pink101 - King's College

In response to America's Foundations posted by pink101:
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A point of interest in the development of the American psyche is related to the history of the creation and development of King's College in New York City during the 1750s.
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William Livingston, a wealthy presbyter, took on the imposition of the school as a force for the Church of England. The church was successful in the beginning and Dr. Samuel Johnson, an Anglican Communicant, was installed as the president. It was a strong thrust of England to establish an Anglican foot hold in the colonies to gain control of the thinking of the people by way of controlling their education.
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In the end, Americans for the separation of church and state won out, Johnson was forced into retirement and King's College (Columbia University) became a secular school serving the upper classes of society.
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This is a key area in the thinking of the American colonists just prior to the revolution.
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People would be fed up to the gills with the Crown's attempts to interfere with the local government of America. The Colonists meant to be self governed--period!
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Self-government

In response to King's College posted by pink101:

The Colonists meant to be self governed--period!

This is not a "period" type statement, Pink. It's frankly anti-intellectual (to use YOUR term) to say otherwise. Self-government "period" implies self-government in the extreme, without any external or even internal restraint. Such is not democracy. It is anarchy. The Founders most certainly did not want that, which is easy to prove, when you look at the republican institutions (like the Electoral College) they set up. The wanted the United States to be governed by laws and not by "mob rule." So, it isn't simply about self-government. It's also about Rule of Law.

» pink101 - Self-government

In response to Self-government posted by BrianTubbs:

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One more time you are off base.
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I haven't got the time right now; but, I will be back.
:)

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Self-government

In response to Self-government posted by pink101:

The documentary record clearly shows that the Founders wanted self-government within a "Rule of Law" umbrella. The ONLY way I can see someone challenging that is if they focus exclusively on Thomas Paine and/or some of the more radical writings of Thomas Jefferson. Such an exercise would be the very opposite of disciplined, objective scholarship, since we must take into account all the principal players of the founding as well as the general sense of the people at that time -- and the institutions that were created.

» Roger Saunders - King's College

In response to King's College posted by pink101:

RE: Samuel Johnson's retirement form King's College

He actually retired in 1763 due to a fear of smallpox in New York and because his wife had just passed away. Myles Cooper took over and the story of his retirement might support Brian's point. He was chased out of the country by the New York Son's of Liberty with none other than Alexander Hamilton stalling the mob, giving him time to escape to a British ship.

Again, I think that you might be assimilating the opposition to Anglican Church authority in government with the desire for the new US to be a secular state. In one sense you are correct because the US in no shape or form was ever intended by most of the founders to be a government which was bound to or controlled by any one religion. This is the meaning of self-government I believe, in the eyes of the founders. I don't believe they EVER meant for society itself to be secular. I also am absolutely sure that even Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine never thought that a belief in God should not have a great influence on the way we live or govern ourselves.

Paine quoted Old Testament scripture often in Common Sense and Jefferson said often that religion and the teachings of Christ were essential to the preservation of American character.

Again, I see the founding fathers as endeavoring to make sure that self government meant that the people had the right to self determination in government as well as in religion. The whole purpose of the First Amendment was to ensure that no organization, including the federal government, could use religion as a way to control that right to self determination!

Saying that America was founded on Christian principles, per se, does not mean that our government is a Christian government. It just means much of the basis for it was a foundation in a moral character that was shaped very close to the prevailing Christian beliefs of that time.

I think the issue becomes muddied a bit when we try to draw absolute lines around it. Yes, America was founded on Christian principles but that was NOT the only foundation. Many "unbelievers" also contributed their ideas that may have been based solely on enlightenment ideas (of course these same ideas motivated and inspired "believers" as well). We cannot draw tidy little boxes around this issue because America was founded upon a conglomeration of ideas and beliefs. This also means that we cannot dogmatically say that America was or was not founded on either Christian principles OR Enlightenment philosophy.

Self government was not the sole possession of either Christianity OR the Enlightenment. Both contributed, more often than not in concert and RARELY to the exclusion of each other, to the Greatest Experiment in Political Science!

Hey

I think this is American History Blog material!

» pink101 - King's College

In response to King's College posted by rogerws76:
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I think this is American History Blog material!
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Yes, it is; but, it is also appropriate to publish our thoughts on the subject here.
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Why is that so?
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It is because Protestant Christianity played such an important part in the colonies up to the Revolution and that it continues to play such an important part in our society today.
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It is altogether appropriate for us to discuss these matters in both places.
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I am reading and rereading your posts and I believe you are displaying a bias that has been popular for all too long. Although, you do have a strong basis for what you're posting.
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But, when we look deep--Who wants to do THAT in twenty-first century America where we have been dumbed down so far--into our roots, we begin to uncover a truth that will never go away. It's there to be discussed.
So, here is an interesting tidbit of information for our consideration:
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In 1843, Mellen Chamberlain interviewed Captain Levi Preston, a 91 year old American who had fought at Concord and Lexington in the Revolutionary War. The Captain's answer provides a good insight into the minds of the men who fought. They were perhaps not so swayed by individual taxes, perceived oppression or the philosophis of Locke and others.
"Captain Preston, why did you go to the Concord fight, the 19th of April, 1775?"
"Why did I go?"
Yes, my histories tell me that you men of the Revolution took up arms against intolerable oppressions. What were they?"
"Oppresions?" Captain Preston asked. "I didn't feel them."
"What, were you not oppressed by the Stamp Act?"
"I never saw one of those stamps...and I am certain I never paid a penny for one of them."
"Well, what then about the tea-tax?"
"Tea-tax! I never drank a drop of the stuff, the boys threw it all overboard."
"Then I suppose you had been reading Harrington or Sidney and Locke about the eternal principles of liberty."
"Never heard of 'em. We read only the Bible, the Catechism, Watts' Psalms and Hymns, and the Almanack."
"Well, then, what was the matter? and what did you mean in going to the fight?"
"Young man, what we meant in going for those Redcoats was this: we always had governed ourselves, and we always meant to. They didn't mean we should."
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I lifted that from this site: http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/05/0...
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-- posted by pink101

» Roger Saunders - King's College

In response to King's College posted by pink101:

YES it is absolutely totally appropriate to talk about this here. I was only saying that i was inspired to write a blog about this in American History!

» Roger Saunders - King's College

In response to King's College posted by pink101:

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE Captain Preston's interview that you have given us here. It is also one of my favorite parts of "Liberty and Freedom" that great book by David Hackett Fischer!

» Brian Tubbs - Plug for Roger's Site

To those observing this discussion, allow me to plug Roger's site.

http://americanhistory.suite101.com/

Roger is one of the more prolific writers here at Suite, and his site is an excellent source of information on American history.

» Brian Tubbs - Preston

In response to King's College posted by pink101:

As a history teacher, I've used Preston's quote numerous times.