Reasons to Reject Atheism: Insurmountable Obstacles to Embracing a Godless Worldview

Popular atheist thinker and publisher Emmett Fields wrote: "As an Atheist I have a very special reverence for truth, real truth, truth with fact and proof behind it." As such, Fields has been on a crusade of sorts to establish atheism as the most credible social science worldview for today's thinking society.

The idea of open-ended "thinking" is highly prized by Fields as it is by many atheists and agnostics. According to Fields, atheism "is the human mind in its natural environment, nothing is too holy to be investigated, nor too sacred to be questioned. The Atheist Bible, it could be said, has but one word: 'THINK.'"

With that in mind, as thinking, reasoning people contemplate atheism with all its premises and its ramifications, they are confronted by some insurmountable obstacles to embracing it. This article can only touch on two:

Atheism is Unprovable

Atheism, at its most basic level, represents a proposition that there is no god. The observable universe is all that there is. No supernatural. No deity. No god of any kind, except that which the human race has conceived.

Religion and philosophy professor Winfried Courdan explains: "The atheist would have to show that he or she has control over all potential avenues of knowing that God exists and that all of them come up empty. No human being could make that claim, for our knowledge is finite."

An atheist simply cannot cover all those bases. Most atheists concede this, and instead argue that the very concept of God, as expressed by Christians (the focus of this particular site) or Jews or whatever other faith, is unworkable or contradictory. They contend that an unworkable or inconsistent hypothesis must be discarded. Therefore, the idea of a god must be discarded.

This creates new problems for atheists, because it compels them to establish premises from which to argue the implausibility of the divine. For example, some atheists argue that the presence of evil in the world is a contradiction to the idea of a god. But this begs a number of questions and presupposes a line of thought that stems from various interpretations of religion.

The atheist must borrow or create premises that are highly suspect and debatable in order to argue for the non-existence of the divine. It's a highly problematic exercise in logic, to say the least. Nevertheless, this is the method of choice for atheists who believe that pointing out conflicts and discrepancies with other faiths credits their own rejection of faith.

Putting out contradictions in the Bible (the subject of future articles) or shooting holes in a faith system do not and cannot establish atheism. Such an approach may discredit alternatives to atheism. But atheists can't possibly address all the conceivable alternatives to their worldview. It's a losing strategy from the get-go.

What's more, they end up victimizing their own school of thought with this approach. If a hypothesis must be discarded for being unworkable, well, as we shall see, that doesn't exactly help atheism.

Atheism Contradicts Human Nature

"There is good evidence that there is a universal need for God," writes Corduan. Some may quibble with Corduan's use of the word "need." However, if one were to change "need" to "yearning," the quote cannot be contested. Religion and worship of gods can be traced back to the dawn of humanity.

What's the relevance of this? Simple. As Corduan explains: "A real need demands an objective reality to fulfill it. Thus the burden of proof that the reality does not exist lies with the atheist..."

The atheist answer to this dilemma is typically the "projection theory" -- the human impulse to create God and "project" it (or Him or Her, some would say) onto human history.

Corduan devastates this flawed reasoning, pointing out that the projection theory "pivots on the assumption that because the idea of God can be a projection of human aspirations, it is nothing more than a projection." In other words, the fact that people want something doesn't and shouldn't be construed to translate into their collectively imagining the very existence of that something. Rather, the ability of people to conceive of such a "thing" is strong evidence that there is some reality behind the idea itself.

Human nature also suggests a deep-rooted, universal concept of right and wrong. While humanity disagrees stridently on the specifics of this moral view, there is widespread consensus that "right" and "wrong" exist as objective realities.

Denials of this truth are often comical. Most people who argue against the notion of a universal morality will then loudly proclaim, in the very next breath, the virtues of "tolerance" and the need for freedom of thought and expression. In other words, they are appealing to some sense of universal fair play - some sense of universal morality.

As the great thinker C.S. Lewis observed: "Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later."

The universal presence of a Right and Wrong, at least in concept, is strong evidence that someone or some thing put it there.

Certainly, these obstacles to atheism, while discrediting that worldview, do not constitute proof for Christianity.

Nevertheless, if Fields and other atheists value thinking and "truth," they must concede that atheism faces some serious problems in these departments.

Next week's article will address additional reasons to reject atheism, including the worldview's failure to explain the universe.

Sep 25, 2006 6:04 PM

Pink :

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I have wavered regarding the ideas of Atheism and at one time, I imagined it might be the correct view of reality.
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But, on more considerate thought, I came to the place where Atheism has to be tossed. This isn't to say that many of Atheism's ideas don't make sense. Many of them do; but, it looks, mostly, like Atheism is a form of conceit.
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Sep 25, 2006 8:24 PM

Brian Tubbs :

Insofar as atheism is essentially a rejection of a possible divine being, I'm not sure that any of its ideas "make sense." If you are referring to some of the atheist critiques of the world's religions, then that would be another matter. Certainly, there are some criticisms of organized religion that make sense. Quite a few of them make sense, actually. But, when it comes to atheism itself, I agree with your last statement. It IS a form of conceit.

Sep 26, 2006 8:46 AM

Pink :

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I think the idea that human beings are responsible for their own actions and in how we have an effect on society makes far more sense than there is some sort of a script that we are following. Atheism moves in a direction where human beings are in control of the directions in which we are going--that makes sense.
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Sep 26, 2006 5:04 PM

Brian Tubbs :

If by "script," you mean that all of our choices are predetermined - that we are simply actors on God's stage, then that will lead us into a discussion of Calvinism / predestination. Too heavy for now, but I'll definitely address that in a future article.

But, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of the word "script."

Sep 26, 2006 6:22 PM

Pink :

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Atheists believe that we are determining our own future in opposition to a generally scripted future. Whether we believe it or not, it makes sense. That's what I meant.
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Sep 27, 2006 7:18 AM

Brian Tubbs :

In other words...existentialism?

Sep 27, 2006 9:22 AM

Pink :

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Phenomenolgy, free-will, determinism, predestination, existentialism--they're all part of the discussion, are they not?

Sep 27, 2006 11:28 AM

Brenda Lane :

I have always believed that atheism is nothing more than wanting to be your own god. Not that one worships oneself, but rather living for ourselves and our own glory rather than for God's. Many of us can struggle and relate to that, even among believers.

I also believe that there is a big difference between free will and election. We all have free will. None of us are robots acting out a play. We all have a choice, whether it's daily or over a lifetime. God wants us to come and surrender to him freely out of love for him.

Sep 27, 2006 1:29 PM

Pink :

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It takes a lot of guts to be an Atheist compared to being a Calvinist. Especially if one thinks they are one of the elect.
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Sep 27, 2006 8:32 PM

Brian Tubbs :

All those things are part of the discussion. I had just finished reading an article on existentialism, though, before reading your post. So, it was kind of like.... "Ahhhh, I know what THAT is!" :-)

Sep 30, 2006 7:33 AM

Katharine M. J. Osborne :

As a non-religious person (I do my own thing), I've never understood monotheism. I can understand why someone would be a polytheist or animist - in ignorance of science and technology, explaining that a phenomenon was created by an unseen "spirit" makes a certain amount of sense. What I don't get at all is why anyone would want to cower and worship before an almighty "loving" God. Even if some poweful supernatural being exists, why would anyone want to do this? If the point is just to get into heaven - it seems like a waste of time. To me, heaven and hell seem equally bad. An infinite amount of time spent serving some entity? That seems like a fantastic way to go insane (do brains exist in heaven? If not, how do you think?). Count me out. I just want to not exist when I die - why should I fear what I can't experience?

The part that really bugs me about it is that by putting ourselves "below" a supernatural being, we've created an artificial hierarchy where we've treated pretty much all other living beings on the planet as "less" than us. Yes, we are part of a food chain, but treating other beings as a completely exploitable and expendable resource is morally dubious at best, and horrifying at worst. I think we can do better than that. There are plenty of other alternative philosophies that are more sensitive to the natural world we have to live in now.

The important thing though is that everyone should have a choice to freely explore their own spirituality without retribution or discrimination from anyone.

Sep 30, 2006 9:31 AM

Brian Tubbs :

....you understand that what we want to believe is not as important as what we should believe. In other words, I may not want to believe in gravity. I, for one, would love to fly - without an airplane. But, darn those scientific laws, I can't.

So, it's fine that you WANT to "do your own thing" and I agree with you that there should be religious freedom. However, ultimately, what matters is the Truth! And that's what I'm humbly (and I mean that sincerely) trying to explore in this series of articles.

Sep 30, 2006 12:27 PM

Pink :

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Kinda chaotic, the name you got their, KaOsborne.
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:)
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Oct 1, 2006 6:39 AM

Pink :

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Even using some of Atheism's most poignant arguments against any god, the odds are that there are unimagined numbers of beings far advanced beyond our mortal understandings. The facts are that we are in an existence so vast that we cannot see to its edges. How can we claim to know the unknown? Add to that that it seems WE are at a fairly high level when it comes to unlocking the secrets of life. That means there must be those beings that have stupendous skills and knowledge hundreds of times superior to ours--so much so that we would have to declare them to be gods. From that point, everything gets to be possible. While you might argue successfully against the God of the Bible or of the Koran or the Torah, to claim there is NO god is just plain imbecilic.
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Oct 1, 2006 7:24 AM

Katharine M. J. Osborne :

I mean no disrespect to your beliefs at all (or your articles). However, you did not answer the question, and I'll rephrase it more directly. Why should one believe in monotheism? What does it offer? How is monotheism truth? Why so absolutist?

I read somewhere once that about 8% of the entire human population is either atheist or agnostic. It also correlates with high intelligence, but also the more education a person has, the more likely he or she will be atheist. It's not a straight across the board correlation, but a strong tendency. This makes me think that aethism is a lot like being left-handed. You either are, or you aren't, it's not really a choice, but more a part of one's fundamental nature (this doesn't preclude the realization that you are not the way you thought you were). It also hints that the development and structure of the brain might play a significant part in a person's beliefs.

Also, an interesting hypothesis was put forth by Leonard Shlain in his book "The Alphabet Vs. the Goddess". His core idea is that monotheism is a result of the acquisition of literacy in humans. Before writing, it can be argued based on archaelogical evidence, monotheism did not exist. The roots of writing are in pictograms, but as pictures transformed to representations of spoken sounds, a single god began to predominate over the others, and it was a particular god, the sky god (most preliterate cultures had an analog, Amon-Ra in Egypt, An in Sumer, Marduk in Babylon). As this god gained more power, he demanded obedience and worship from humans. The gods became less about understanding the universe; instead the sky god became the enforcer of newly written law. There is another implication - that in the difficult, unnatural, and tedious process of learning how to write, the brain somehow gets "formatted" to be predisposed to believe in abstract absolutes (one god, laws) rather than relatives and shades of meaning (a network of gods, taboos). Even when a small percentage of the population learned to write in newly literate cultures, the one god concept spread fiercely. The counter argument is that it could just be coincidence (and it could very well be), but this consistently happened as writing travelled to each culture. I don't agree with Schlain on everything he wrote about to support the concept, but it is an extremely intriguing explanation on the origin of the monotheistic God.

Finally, I think it is misleading to equate scientifically testable phe

Oct 1, 2006 7:30 AM

Katharine M. J. Osborne :

pink, in a mathematical context, chaos is the thin border between complete order and complete disorder, it is the place where information can be generated. I picked it after I read the book "Chaos" by James Glieck (about fractals) when I was 12 and it just sort of stuck ever since. I wanted to explain because I just realized there are darker layers of meaning to the word when viewed in a religious context.

Oct 1, 2006 7:58 AM

Katharine M. J. Osborne :

The term imbecilic is incredibly insulting - but I forgive you :-) I think you are splitting semantic hairs. You define a god to be an entity "far advanced beyond our mortal understandings". That's a pretty broad definition that could include dolphins (bigger cerebral cortices, the very useful added sense of sonar), aliens (with the vastness of the universe I'd use the odds to bet they exist), and the internet itself (several petabytes of RAM is way beyond the human mind's mere 4 terabytes of wet gray stuff) as well as possible supernatural beings. Are these gods?

Just because you are in awe of something doesn't mean you should start worshipping it. So, why call anything a god? Can't things just be as they are? Oh wait, that's a Buddhist concept...

The thing is though, we can see the edges of the universe. Or at least, we can see back in time to the remnants of the Big Bang - it's called the microwave background radiation. A lot of physicists are now concerned with the structure of spacetime itself (the "stuff" is more significant that the "boundary"). Science is now pushing beyond the Big Bang, and coming up with ideas about what's on the outside of the universe (essentially, more universes, or rather the multiverse). When the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) comes online next year at CERN in Switzerland, we might be able to confirm if that is true or not. It's not exactly a pair of eyes, but it helps us see. This begs the question, are we gods?

Oct 1, 2006 9:59 AM

Pink :

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Maybe I should have been a little more gentle in my put down of atheistic thinking.
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My point is simply that the odds are that there are beings that have intelligence far beyond ours other than in this solar system. There may even be 11 dimensions as I have heard. Perhaps there is something to the String Theory of existence? These are strange areas of thought. I have many questions about the state of being.
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I am sure evolution is a fact about the existence of life and I don't see that it interferes with the idea of divinity. In fact, God--if there is only one--must be a product of evolvution. The very idea of process is about evolution--not only physical but in every aspect. The Greek ideas about the existence of a race of gods doesn't cause me any problems.
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You ask, "This begs the question, are we gods?".
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Compared to what, the spider I noticed on my patio yesterday? Of all the words you know, you almost have to admit that the word, god, is a term about relative values. Does any god have to be omnipotent and or omniscient in order to be a god? And, if evolution is a fact of being, then, you must say that we are on our way to becoming gods in our own right. This begs the question, can you deny that? :)
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I know somehting about chaos. It's a pretty good model for thinking. I was only recognizing the joke you're making with your logon name. I think it's pretty good. :)
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I was caught up in existentialism once and thought I could actually hear the gods laughing at me as I tumulted into the bottomless pits of space. heh heh

Oct 2, 2006 1:00 AM

Oliver Dusenbury :

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Obviously, we need to define clearly what is meant by "God".
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Can you worship the spider's god?
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Is this computer god?
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Is this computer guilty of atheistic thinking?
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What about the god that plagues 90% of America, the LORD GOD of the Bible?
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With gods that are only more powerful energy than we are willing to possess, we are faced with an infinite image from mirrors that reflect themselves, for if we do not recognize greater energy, it is not god, in that we are not worshipping it.
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With gods like the LORD GOD of the Bible, we have words to look at that describe it in some detail.
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That LORD GOD seems to want its followers to kill children at certain times.
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Therefore, one who cannot see the wisdom of killing children can immediately reject such a god, and it is a great favor to reasonable people that the Bible exists, but only if you read it.
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But what is God? And is the rejection of anything that cannot be defined not the ultimate protestation?
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Intelligence far beyond ours would want us to reject the idea of god.
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Intelligence far beyond ours would want us to use what we have to make our world a pleasant place to visit.
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A world with people blinded to kindness by the idea of god as defined by the world's bullies is not an intelligence being magnet.

Oct 2, 2006 8:35 AM

Brian Tubbs :

HeadZenCards (and I'm going to call you HZC for short from now on :-) ), we are several steps away from addressing your allegation that God likes to kill children. I promise I will get there. Right now, in my articles, I'm laying the casue for the existence of a divine Creator. I would ask that we keep this particular thread focused on that. But I promise I will get to your other points in due course. They are relevant questions.

Oct 2, 2006 8:42 AM

Brian Tubbs :

I wanted to take a step back from your questions and call everyone's attention to the fact that God is either real or not. In other words, it doesn't matter whether you find God appealing, compelling, or worthy of your worship and obedience. That is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Either God exists or God doesn't exist. That is the question we are presently looking at.

However, so you don't think I'm dodging your questions...

Why should one believe in monotheism?

That is the whole purpose of the series of articles I'm doing. I'm leading the readers up, step-by-step, to understand why billions of people embrace monotheism. Obviously, this will take some time. :-)

What does it offer?

Well...let's see. Purpose. Hope. Wisdom.

If there is a divine Creator overseeing the universe and all of us, then that puts life in a very different light than if there was just random mutation and natural selection.

 How is monotheism truth? Why so absolutist?

Well, in our series, we haven't gotten to those questions yet. Right now, I'm more concerned with showing how illogical and (may I be so bold) intellectually irrational it is to embrace atheism. I can understand agnosticism (although such a person will ultimately need to commit - you can't live in a knowledge vacuum forever), Deism, or pantheism. While these world views have problems, they are more comprehensible and credible than atheism.

Oct 2, 2006 6:18 PM

Pink :

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Do you mean to convey that you that you will be making the case for a single god?
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And, if so, will you identify that god in particular?
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I heard a very dedicated Christian man, 85 years of age, make this statement this afternoon. He said, "Press on to the Mark. I used to think that meant winning some sort of a race. But, as I grow older and do more studious work in the Bible, I've come to believe it means to strive toward being more like Christ."
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Oct 4, 2006 6:01 PM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

Well...let's see. Purpose. Hope. Wisdom. 

True. That has saved me from a suicide attempt more than once.

When I was 17 I was in between being an Atheist and an Agnostic. I saw no purpose nor hope for my life, and wisdom was just out of reach. I realized after turning back to God that my life had purpose and hope, and by rejecting God I rejected wisdom too.

Sadly, things aren't the way they once were. In the last few months I've grown away from God and it's just very lonely, even more so with all my friends growing closer to Him.

Oct 4, 2006 6:14 PM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

After years of arguing with you, a few months back everything you said made sense, and I walked away from God. Going to church made me angry, and I just wanted to punch out anyone who started preaching to me. Everything went wrong for me. One of my "friends" told me to act like someone I'm not because he didn't the person I am, I lost my hero and mate to a sting ray (I'm guessing you heard about that on the news since you couldn't escape it), I've been put in the mental health ward twice this year for suicide attempts and my little puppy died after a series of seizures. I really took that hard because I named him after my mate who died last year, who also suffered from seizures. To me, that was a cruel joke God played on me, and gave me every reason to reject him.

So, for the first time ever, I understood what you were saying.

Oct 5, 2006 6:49 AM

Brian Tubbs :

Most people that reject God do so on grounds similar to these. They see chaos and carnage around them (9/11/2001, Hurricane Katrina, child abuse, world hunger, etc) and tragedy close to home (death of a loved one, loss of a child, experience w/ abuse, etc.) - and they ask: "How can God - if God is even there - allow this to happen?"

There was a chaplain who recently came back from Iraq. After seeing all the bloodshed and suffering there, he remarked: "When I pray, I'm not sure God is even there."

This is a serious issue, and I can't do justice to it in a short post here. But I would encourage anyone struggling with this to read Hebrews 11 - the WHOLE chapter. Pay close attention to what happened [ in this life anyway - to the so-called "heroes of the faith." Read that. Reflect on that. Pray on that.

Oct 5, 2006 5:19 PM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

Fear not, I have my faith back. I don't blame God for suffering anymore. But I'm still trying to have a personal relationship with Him. It's still difficult for me, but I'm trying.:)

Oct 8, 2006 10:23 AM

Pink :

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Richard Dawkins' new book, THe God Delusion, has sold out in two days at our local Barnes & Noble book store.
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Here is the Amozon link:
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http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004
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I've ordered a copy.
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I know there are people who wouldn't read the back cover.
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Something big is happening in regards to the excesses of religionism in America.
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Oct 13, 2006 7:57 AM

Brian Tubbs :

The biggest challenge Christians have in persuading others to embrace God is...

...Christians.

I like what Gandhi said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians."

Oct 15, 2006 1:07 PM

Boanerges :

I don't blame God for suffering anymore. But I'm still trying to have a personal relationship with Him. It's still difficult for me, but I'm trying

Hi Kim...
I was saddned to read your heart felt feelings.. I think it is good to let it out and let it go....

I have never for once accepted anything Headzen had said (concerning religion) because of the contradictory nature of his words. I am a thinker and I realize that contradiction cannot be truth.

Suffering is vital.. For it brings us towards God. Imagine no suffering at all.. Do you think people can find God? If you look around these discussions, all that is being said by the nonbelievers is that God is only good, full of love, etc, etc... They have deduced him to an weak old man sitting on clouds showing warm rays of love and sunshine on all the world. So far from the truth. GOD, is calling out a people unto himself....

I invite you to join our discussions at my board addressing your very issues..

Why Does God Allow Suffering?
http://www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=thejedshed&showforum=12

God never claimed that life would be only happy, without suffering. Those who make such claims do not know what the scriptures actually say.

It is good to test your faith, even be angry with God. I believe that God wants us to challenge all these issues, directly with Him...

As for a "personal relationship".. The question every believer should ask is: "do you really love Jesus".. Jesus said: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". He sent us the Holy Spirit to help us through our struggles.... God has provided all things for those who seek Him and his desire for us to walk with Him...

We walk by faith, not by sight (2Co:5:7)

If our heart condemns us, God is greater than our hearts.. (1John 3:20-21)

Oct 19, 2006 1:16 AM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

I think the best reason to reject Atheism is the fact that the Atheist doesn't exist.

Check this out:http://www.sbea.mtu.edu/users/slstonge/index.html

Oct 19, 2006 7:20 AM

Pink :

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From your link:
"Could I convince you that I dropped 50 oranges onto the ground and they randomly fell into 10 columns and 5 rows? The logical conclusion is that someone with an intelligent mind put them there. The odds that ten oranges would fall by accident into a straight line are mind-boggling, let alone five rows of ten."
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Let's just take a look at the concept we refer to as infinity. That is "forever", right?
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Now, give me some idea of what you think the odds are that the molecules and energies that make our present existence in all its complexity will ever occur again some time within infinity.
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If infinity is forever without end, then, our reality will all be replayed again and again and again without end no matter the odds.
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That, of course, is if you believe in logic.
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:)
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Maybe we'll do better the next time around. What are the odds that one of the times we'll remember it happened before?
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Does that give any meaning to the idea that there is nothing new under the sun?
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What does it say about all things being possible?
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Is life a mystery?
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Can anyone definitely know truth that is irrefutable?
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What are the odds that another you exists in another galaxy?
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What are the odds that the other you knows all about the you that you know?
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That should keep us busy for a thousand years.
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Oct 19, 2006 10:10 AM

Boanerges :

interesting link, Kim!...

Oct 19, 2006 10:20 AM

Pink :

What if the odds are a trillion trillion to the trillion time a trillion to the trillion times a billion trillionth power?
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In all eternity, it will have to reoccur, time and time and time again and again.
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That is, occording to logic.
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But, that's another subject. even though it relates to the link Kim gave.

Oct 19, 2006 11:52 AM

Boanerges :

In all eternity, it will have to reoccur, time and time and time again and again.

I dont think it is possible to infer "time" with "eternity" (without time). The Bible tells us: Hebrews 9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is, occording to logic.

Logic tells me that time is ~limited~. Infinite only occurs ~in time~...

I offered you a few weeks back some good articles about this subject. I wonder if for some reason they got lost in the shuffle? Here is the link to my site where they are listed (at the top). I think they will be a good read if you take a moment to look them over!

Time Travelers Of the Bible by Gary Stearman
http://thestraigtgate.blogspot.com/2003/10/articles-of-interest.html

Oct 19, 2006 12:57 PM

Pink :

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To tell you the truth, I'm afraid of your site. For one thing, I don't trust you. For another, I have to register to be able to read your blogs and that compromises my security. Sorry about that. Anything you have to offer me will have to be done at Suite101.com. You have exposed yourself as a person who is dishonest, Wendell.
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Oct 19, 2006 2:35 PM

Boanerges :

To tell you the truth, I'm afraid of your site. For one thing, I don't trust you.

your loss.. you do believe your own propaganda!

For another, I have to register to be able to read your blogs and that compromises my security.

not true!.. you do not need to register to read anything posted on any of my blogs, which are managed by blogger.com. (I have 10 blogs on blogger.com) You could always report to them any violations that may have you worried! They will do the proper checks, I can assure you.. :)

Sorry about that.

Ignorance is no excuse:)

Anything you have to offer me will have to be done at Suite101.com. You have exposed yourself as a person who is dishonest, Wendell.

Maybe you should get a good virus protection program like I have? Symantec is one of the best and it doesn't cost much. That is, if you are so worried...

If you are worried about costs, then you can do free virus scans at Trendmicro....
http://www.trendmicro.com/en/home/us/home.htm

Sorry you believe your own rhetoric and propaganda to the point of fear (and false accusations)! The fact is, many visit my sites on a daily basis, even many who visit here! lol... Your cheap accusations really are not so impressive, nor believable...

cheap shot is about what it amounts too..

and, I laugh at such ignorance...

--- back to Time and Eternity?

By the way, Time Travelers of the Bible (using a google search -I use my brain!!) Now, you have no excuse!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Time+Travelers+of+the+Bi ble+%2B+gary+stearman%22&btnG=Search

(wow! lookie... Im 3rd in the listing!)

oh wow.. lookie here, in the cache on Google, when I listed the links on Suite101!!!.. Its not so hard to find information, Phil.. you just have to know what you are doing...

Lisitng of articles on Suite101 (cached from Goggle)
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:zPOt4Rllu7oJ:www.suite101.com/topic_ page.cfm/6778/5101+Time+Travelers+of+the+Bible+%2B+gary+stearman%22&hl= en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

Oct 19, 2006 3:43 PM

Pink :

I use Symantec's Norton.
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I went to one of your sites once and it wanted me to get a login just like I have here at Suite101.com.
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Funny thing. I checked out that Olbermann video and came down with a virus. Norton found it and I deleted it. It was a trogan. Looks like someone is sabotaging the Olbermann site.
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Bastids!
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Oct 19, 2006 3:54 PM

Boanerges :

I use Symantec's Norton.

me2.. you see, Phil.. its not about trust, its about being smart!....

I went to one of your sites once and it wanted me to get a login just like I have here at Suite101.com.

May have been the discussion site.. That does require to register.... The reason for that is simple. Like Suite101...

Funny thing. I checked out that Olbermann video and came down with a virus. Norton found it and I deleted it. It was a trogan. Looks like someone is sabotaging the Olbermann site.

Hmm.. really? wow... I better scan myself then...

Bastids!

yeah.. no kidding.....

by the way, as I mentioned in the previous message, you can see the links f or 'Time travelers of the Bible' from the Google cache of Suite101, when I listed them last year. The cache remains for quite awhile (its the last link in the previous message. Of course, some of the other links have been updated since then... and new ones added)...

Do yourself a favor and read those articles. I believe they will be an eye-opener for you in understanding how time and eternity work together... here, in this time and space which [we] live..
just my opinion though....:)

going to scan the oberman video....

Oct 19, 2006 4:34 PM

Boanerges :

well.. I did a scan for any virus and did not find any....

hmm..

Oct 19, 2006 5:21 PM

Pink :

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That's the only place I visited other than Suite101.com.
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I sent the link to several people on my address list. Who knows?
Anyway, Norton found it and I killed it.

Oct 20, 2006 2:10 PM

Boanerges :

well.. did you print out those articles and study them closely?

Oct 20, 2006 2:21 PM

Pink :

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I try to divide my time between various chores, my extra family interests, reading, and quality time with my wife and children.
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I'm not too busy; but, I have to set priorities. Right now I'm listening to the Chief giving a speech at this link you published in another thread:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060906-3.html
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I try to weigh the evidence on both sides.
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Oct 20, 2006 2:53 PM

Boanerges :

I try to weigh the evidence on both sides.

me2...
I'll give it a listen myself... although, I must admit, I'm having a real difficult time watching "the Chief" these days. Sad to say... :(

"On the morning of September the 11th, 2001, our nation awoke to a nightmare attack. Nineteen men, armed with box cutters, took control of airplanes and turned them into missiles. They used them to kill nearly 3,000 innocent people. We watched the Twin Towers collapse before our eyes -- and it became instantly clear that we'd entered a new world, and a dangerous new war".

Propaganda and complete B.S.!! 9-11 was designed and executed for the very purpose to - "enter a new world, and a dangerous new war".

key phrase[s] "new world" and "new war"

excerpts of: President Bush's (the elder) speech to Congress March 6, 1991:

"Now, we can see a new world coming into view. A world in which there is the very real prospect of a new world order. In the words of Winston Churchill, a "world order" in which "the principles of justice and fair play ... protect the weak against the strong ..." A world where the United Nations, freed from cold war stalemate, is poised to fulfil the historic vision of its founders. A world in which freedom and respect for human rights find a home among all nations.

The Gulf war put this new world to its first test, and, my fellow Americans, we passed that test.

Tonight as our troops begin to come home, let us recognise that the hard work of freedom still calls us forward. We've learned the hard lessons of history. The victory over Iraq was not waged as "a war to end all wars." Even the new world order cannot guarantee an era of perpetual peace. But enduring peace must be our mission" ...

Oct 20, 2006 5:52 PM

Pink :

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Keep it up.
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You're on the right track.
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Once you figure out that corruption finds its greatest comfort in high places, you'll begin to question your most profoundly held beliefs. Once you break them, you experience the liberty the apostle Paul speaks of in his writings. There is nothing that can compare to liberty. Absolutely nothing!
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Oct 21, 2006 2:25 AM

Boanerges :

Once you figure out that corruption finds its greatest comfort in high places, you'll begin to question your most profoundly held beliefs.

it didnt take you long to start attacking Christianity again, did it?...

You should know by now, Phil, one cannot lose something, that one never had to begin with....

So no.. I won't be losing my faith:)... In fact, its only be verified...

Keep it up. You're on the right track.

I've been part of the 9-11 Truth movement for over 4yrs now... We do not believe "Arab terrorist" flew planes into the WTC or the Pentagon. In fact, we claim that the WTC towers we felled because of explosives...... But, I've said that all ready.. :).. so, to repeat from the other thread, this will conclude my posting on the 9-11 cover up here.. If anyone is interested, they can visit my site for more information...

http://911controlleddemolition.blogspot.com/

Oct 21, 2006 5:29 AM

Pink :

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Faith and profoundly held beliefs may not be the same thing.
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So, if the Arabs didn't commandeer the planes, how did they get flown into the towers and the Pentagon?
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Was there a homing device? Could be.
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Oct 21, 2006 11:15 AM

Boanerges :

So, if the Arabs didn't commandeer the planes, how did they get flown into the towers and the Pentagon?

You only know that Arab's commandeered planes because of?

Was there a homing device? Could be

probably so... many believe (911 truth movement) they were drones. The flight records do not agree with what happened, especially concerning 93. Most believe that the operation took place in WTC7.. which was the 3rd bldg to fall without any damage to it - or fire and was the headquaters for CIA, FBI, NSA, and many more agencies at NYC...

Oct 21, 2006 11:19 AM

Pink :

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Building seven was an operations center?
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I always thought it took demolition teams a long time to plant the explosives to bring a building down. Apparently they brought building seven down in a matter of hours. Strange. What do you know about the details?
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Oct 21, 2006 1:52 PM

Brian Tubbs :

Hey guys...

Might I humbly suggest that this thread has veered just slightly off-topic? It's supposed to be about atheism, and it's gotten into government conspiracy theories. Perhaps a different thread might be in order?

Oct 21, 2006 2:15 PM

Boanerges :

It's supposed to be about atheism

agreed:)

government conspiracy theories

There is no "theory" that the government "conspired". The 9-11 Comission said as much. To prove a conspiracy exists, all one needs to do is look at the governments version. The 9-11 Comission did not agree with that.. So, we know a conspiracy is invloved. Its no longer a theory.. but a fact..

Anyhoo.. back to the Atheism discussion.....:)

Oct 21, 2006 2:43 PM

Pink :

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The point might be that there are rogue government officials--political criminals--who are athiests masquerading as Christians and believing Jews who are undermining our honest government officials.
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If power hungry criminals who don't believe in God (Atheists) get to a place where they can conspire with each other to bamboozle the public, why wouldn't they put on the frock of religiosity and masquerade as agents of Light? Did anyone think they would admit to being Atheists?
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Ever hear of political criminals? Could you imagine such persons? Every hear about corruption in high places?
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:)
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And, God Bless America?
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Oct 21, 2006 2:51 PM

Boanerges :

if power hungry criminals who don't believe in God (Atheists) get to a place where they can conspire with each other to bamboozle the public, why wouldn't they put on the frock of religiosity and masquerade as agents of Light? Did anyone think they would admit to being Atheists?

I would have to agree with this idea. In fact, I believe it happens more than the public realizes. Jesus said we would know [them] by their fruit...

Ever hear of political criminals? Could you imagine such persons? Every hear about corruption in high places?

Well... I believe that atheists and so-called Christians can both offer corruption or good to a society. I dont believe that just because someone is atheist would automatically bring corruption. The corruption I see from non-religious people would be the moral laws we would set for our society. Atheists are humanists, therefore, likely to support Stem cell research for example. While I believe that the embryo is a life. The Nuremburg trials brought forward many moral determinations concerning ethics and morality, when used for example, on human experimentation, such as the wickedness the Nazi's used in their medical experiments....

Oct 23, 2006 2:38 PM

Pink :

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Well, we are getting to know Bush by his fruits.
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Pretty sad state of affairs. Nearly three thousand snuffed out.
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Oct 23, 2006 3:46 PM

Boanerges :

Well, we are getting to know Bush by his fruits. Pretty sad state of affairs. Nearly three thousand snuffed out.

I don't think [only] Bush (or the Republicans) can take credit for sacrificing our men and women. Is it not true that the Democrats held Congress for some 40 odd years prior to the Republicans coming into office? Were they not in fact, responsbile for Vietnam? Did they not start the "war" with Vietnam using the Gulf of Tonkin incident as an excuse? Were we "really" fighting the "red commies" as the "fear of that day" was their excuse for going to "war"?

I agree that war can in fact be unjustified. However, I also believe that war can be justified, and in fact, in this world in which we live, is necessary and impossible to avoid. We have very real enemies that would in no wise desire to destroy us completely and entirely (both within and without). In this modern age of WMD, we live in extremely perilous times, such as was never before in the history of mankind.

Nearly every politician agreed to go into Iraq. That is fact. I do believe that most supported it as a noble cause, in as much to give moderate Muslims the chance to stand-up against religious facism and its police-state to enforce the totalitarian regimes that have dominated that region since the beginning, and establish the possibility of REAL freedom to millions. We certainly should have had a clear plan going in and a clear plan to get out. WWII only lasted 4 yrs, and we have been in Iraq over 4yrs now. This is most certainly intolerable. Yet, something else is at play here. That, I am certain of.

I believe that most everyone supports defeating "terrorism" - NOT Islam or Muslims - but radical extemists who have no moral issue with killing their own people, and in the most horrific of methods. "Terrorism" is, in itself, a political issue, and a diplomatic issue. "Terror" has nothing to do with religion, society or culture.

Surely we can see what is happening, NOW, in the Sudan, with the genocide going on there with over 2million deaths in that region in the last 10yrs, primarily aimed against the Christian South because of the extremist Islamic regime in power. And yet the world CONTINUES to turn a blind eye on those people while they continue to be slaughtered. We saw what happened in Yugoslavia and the genocide that took place in that country as it fell apart, live, on our television screens.

Genocide in the 21st century??!!!???

Proves to me, that

Oct 23, 2006 5:15 PM

Pink :

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The only reason I will vote for a Democrat is to defeat the Republican Party which is under the control of a very sinister bunch.
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The Democratic Party has lost its base, the UAW/CIO organizers. The big unions were running the show. They called the shots and that was it. They destroyed the old party organization of precinct leaders and block captains along with the foot soldiers.
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Now that the unions have been destroyed by their own greedy hierarchies, the Democratic Party is afloat without a good base of workers. That's going to have to change. They are going to have to reorganize from the grass roots up. But, that could be done in a matter of a few months with the right leadership. First, they're going to have to get rid of the good old boys like Hilary Clinton and a few others. That's happening.
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O'Bama is getting a lot of play by the media right now and I'm suspicious of that. However, I do like the idea of a black man who can speak the white man's language. He comes across for blacks, whites, hispanics and the rest. And, he's from the Land of Lincoln if that makes any difference.
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We'll see.
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I will join the Democratic Party in a heart beat once they start building a people's party. And, I will work hard for the building of a grass roots operation. Now, the media is calling the shots and everyone knows the media is owned by big corporate interests.
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Feudalism and religionism will take us back into the dark ages if we're not careful.
..
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Oct 24, 2006 11:26 AM

Boanerges :

Feudalism and religionism will take us back into the dark ages if we're not careful.

I would have to agree.. The intolerant religion of Humanism (Atheism) will send us back to the dark ages.. In fact, the Bible is quite clear on that in the last days...

Oct 25, 2006 1:27 AM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

I'd have to agree also.

Humanistic Atheism was and still is ripe in Communist Countries (Soviet Union, Cuba, etc), and just look at them. They were/are still living in the Dark Ages, where one view is enforced on the people and those who believe differently suffer. The religion of Atheism is above everything else there, and free-will is all but a dream to all non-Atheists.

We have the seperation of "State and Religion" rule in the "free world" to avoid reverting back to the Dark Ages.

Oct 25, 2006 4:58 AM

Pink :

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What makes you think people who don't believe in a god don't have feelings at least equal to yours?
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You continually run down "humanistic atheism" as though it is some kind of a weak minded response of a feeble brain. That, Kim, is plain ingorance and stupidity on your part. Christianity, Judaism, and Muslimism threw the world into the dark ages and it is the continued confrontation between Christianity, Judaism, and Muslimism that is causing us so much trouble in the world today. Get real for once, will you? Wake up to reality.
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Oct 25, 2006 6:08 AM

Pink :

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More than that!
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It is the combination of Othodox Judaism, Dominionism, and Fundamentalism that is causing our nation to be thrown into this terrible war we're financing in the Middle East much to the pleasure of Haliburton and other war mongers and all for the purposes of an immoral war against the indigenous people of Palestine by a fascist Israeli government so the promised land can be redeemed for God's chosen people. All this crazy talk about end times, Armageddon, and the thousand year reign of the Jewish Mesianic monarchy with Israel ruling the world. Your comments add to the problems. Give me a break!!
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Your lack of a Christian conscience is the most obvious thing about you if you support Israel in its evil and inhumane treatment of the indigenous people who it is displacing on an ever increasing strategy. It's about time for Israel to give the native peoples blankets infested with small pox, isn't it? Sick, sick, sick.
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Oct 26, 2006 12:07 AM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

Well, I wouldn't run them down as much if they would stop running Christians down. I know they have feelings, and I do treat them equally, but there are a good few Atheists who are down right cruel and are always ridiculing and persecuting Christians, Muslems and Jews. It is these Atheists I am attacking.

I don't deny most Atheists are friendly, kind and loving people (I've met many an Atheist who does have respect for Christians), but history has and personal experiences have shown that a select few are down right mean.

What I've said about Atheists are true. Atheistic Communism HAS thrown the world back to the Dark Ages, just like Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Atheists HAVE killed millions of people, maybe more than any other religion. Just about every Atheist website DOES attack non-Atheists like a school yard bully. That is not only the truth, it is "plain ignorance and stupiditiy", but on their part.

I have woken up to reality, mate, and I've gotten real, and the fact is that while Atheists bitch and rant about the evils religion has brought into the world, they forget or are ignorant to the fact that they are no better.

I'm sorry if that bothers you, but maybe you'll understand if you live through the shit and pain Atheists have put me and my family through.

The point I've been trying to make is that Atheists are no better than anyone else so they should start respecting other people's beliefs and learn some tolerance.

And for the record, I don't think that people who don't believe in a god don't have feelings at least equal to mine. I do have a lot of respect for Atheists (believe it or not), even after the shit they've put me through, but keep in mind that it was our old friend Franc28 who told me that Christians have no feeling or emotions and are lesser people than Atheists.

But until the Atheists (well, the ones I'm referring to anyway) change their attitude towards "believers", I will continue to rant about their actions, just as Oliver rants about "God ordering the deaths of infants and sucklings", and if you don't like it, you can just ignore what I say (someone as smart and mature as you shouldn't waste your time with a loser like me. I'm just a bored 22 year old arsehole who's wasting his life. You've achieved heaps, so you don't have to read what I say:)).

Oct 26, 2006 4:43 AM

Pink :

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An interesting response.
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There's nothing in it that sets it off more than the entire post taken as a whole. So, I recommend that everyone take the time to read exactly what Kim has to say.
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Basically, he is saying that Atheists and Theists are pretty much the same when it comes to being a problem for society.
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That's my point, Kim, and it seems to be yours as well. So why should we run down atheists in comparison to Religionists or vice versa. I, too, have noticed that many Atheists are screwballs. But, I have to confess, they're no worse than many Theists.
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By the way, is spring popping out all over down there? Winter is on its way here. Think about that.
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Oct 26, 2006 1:32 PM

Brian Tubbs :

I need to respectfully ask that you keep the language family-friendly. We may have young people reading through these sites.

Oh....and I've read your posts and your profile. I don't think you're "wasting your life." I know you were paying respect to Pink as your senior, and you should. But don't be hard on yourself. Words carry meaning. Don't run yourself down.

Nov 5, 2006 6:11 AM

BOB KUHN :

Just checking in, and saw the topic. I'm taking an atheist to church with me today. He's a co-worker. I asked him to come, and he said OK. Even though he doesn't believe in God, God believes in him. :)

P.S. - I'm a big Bush fan, Pinky. (That's Reggie, not George W.) :)

Nov 5, 2006 7:40 AM

Pink :

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Hey! :)
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Heard any good ones lately?
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For those who might not know, IM1 is Suite101's resident comedian.
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Nov 22, 2006 10:40 AM

Oliver Dusenbury :

"Believing there is no god gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have." - Samuel G. Freedman

Do not cling to the fiction that a real God causes anything to happen.

Focus on the beauty in your unfolding life, like the lover of plants focuses on a spring-time blossom.

My cat recently died. He would wake me by licking my hand when he was hungry.

Last week, I had a dream about him, and he spoke very good English, showing me worm holes wherein he could travel from one continent to another as easily as walking through an open doorway.

At that moment, my female Chinese Crested dog woke me by licking me on the hand.

Nov 22, 2006 4:08 PM

Kim Jeremy Sheil :

Focus on the beauty in your unfolding life, like the lover of plants focuses on a spring-time blossom.

I love plants. I don't really care if it's a bit fruity, I just do.

We recently moved into our new house, so I can start my own garden. The other day was exactly one year since me mate's death, so my mum bought me a plant with lovely yellow flowers (yellow was his favourite colour), which I've planted outside my window near the pool area.

It's Spring right now Down Under, my favourite time of the year. Everything is just so nice at this time. Makes you almost forget about Winter.

My cat recently died.

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm more of a cat person than a dog person.

Last week, I had a dream about him, and he spoke very good English, showing me worm holes wherein he could travel from one continent to another as easily as walking through an open doorway.

That's pretty weird. It's not uncommon to dream about departed loved ones (even animals). I still dream about Josh being alive, and I dream about pets from my childhood.

At that moment, my female Chinese Crested dog woke me by licking me on the hand.

Dogs often form friendships with cats (my abyssinian and my chihuahua are really close playmates), so she probably misses him as well. Perhaps she was comforting you by copying your cat's activities?

Aug 21, 2008 9:45 AM

Guest :

I don't believe "insurmountable" or "obstacles" are very apt descriptions of these ideas- "objections" seems more accurate.

For one, you say that atheism is unprovable because you can't prove a negative. Quite true. However, there is a vast body of evidence & philosophical reasoning to suggest that every action every attributed to a god can have a perfectly natural explanation (or at least, that god is hardly the best explanation). And do bear in mind that if the inability to prove the nonexistence of the Christian god makes atheism an untenable belief, the inability to disprove the existence of Allah, Shiva, etc. makes Christianity untenable, as well.

On the second point, the very existence of atheists proves that a "yearning" for god is not a part of human nature - it is just a common part of human society. Also, many satisfy their so-called religious impulses without belief in a god. Actually, it would be more accurate to say that it is part of human nature to personify non-human forces in order to make better sense of them.

"...there is widespread consensus that "right" and "wrong" exist as objective realities."

Well, there are packed prison systems & glaring cultural differences that say otherwise. The only widespread consensus seems to be that everyone has their own sense of right and wrong, and that they believe their own to be absolute & objective (consider abortion, sex before mearriage, the death penalty, child abuse, etc.). If there were an objective, absolute standard of right & wrong we would either all agree on it, or we would each be horrible guilt-ridden for going against it - neither of which is observed in the real world.