Facing the Giants: A Review
A Review of Sherwood Pictures' Low-Budget, High-Emotion Film
© Brian Tubbs
Sep 6, 2007
Last year, Sherwood Pictures, the media ministry of Sherwood Baptist Church in Georgia, released its second and most popular film. Should you see it?
For years, Baptist churches and fundamentalist Christians avoided the movie theaters. Now, they're trying to get movies into the theaters. And Hollywood is helping them.
The most notable example of this new phenomenon is Facing the Giants, a movie made by a Baptist church in Georgia for approximately $100,000. By all accounts, it's an ultra-low budget, independent film that would normally go straight to video. Not this one.
Facing the Giants was picked up by Provident Films and distributed through Sony and Samuel Goldwyn Films. It grossed just under $15 million in the theaters -- not bad for an indie with little advertising. And now it's on DVD, earning even more money through home sales, rentals, and church site licenses (for public showings).
Despite its underdog success, the film has been panned by critics as low-quality and sickeningly sweet religious propanganda. Truth be told, if you don't like feel-good, family-friendly films, you will likely agree with these critics. The movie is shamelessly committed to faith and family in general, and evangelical Christianity in particular. And this is no doubt why many critics have panned it.
Picture a sermon by Joel Osteen, a success seminar by Zig Ziglar, and a Christianized version of Remember the Titans all wrapped together - and you've got Facing the Giants.
Facing the Giants follows Grant Taylor (Alex Kendrick), a struggling Christian high school football coach. When we first meet Taylor, everything that can possibly go wrong in his life is indeed heading in that direction. He is underpaid, unable to have children, and can't turn his losing football program around. In fact, he's on the verge of getting canned.
Desperate, Taylor rededicates his life to the Lord. His recommitment to Christ sparks a school-wide revival and what can only be described as a complete reversal of fortune for Taylor, his family, and the school's football program.
The film leaves no emotional stone unturned. Relax your defenses and you will be taken on an emotional roller-coaster. Keep your defenses up, and you'll likely be one of those critics shaking your head at the film's syrupy efforts to suction every tear out of its viewer.
Facing the Giants was produced by Sherwood Pictures, a ministry of Sherwood Baptist Church in Albany, Georgia. It was directed by Alex Kendrick, media pastor for Sherwood Baptist Church. He and his brother, Stephen Kendrick, co-wrote the script.
Sherwood Pictures previously made Flywheel, which is now being re-released on DVD this November. The studio has also begun pre-production on its next film, Fireproof.
Facing the Giants has its flaws, but it's worth your time.
The copyright of the article
Facing the Giants: A Review in
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Brian Tubbs. Permission to republish
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Comments
Sep 8, 2007 8:02 PM
Migisi :
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From the Sherwood Pictures website:
"In 2003, Sherwood Pictures premiered its first full length motion picture, Flywheel... FLYWHEEL was filmed with a budget of only $20,000!... has sold over 40,000 DVDs to date."
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At $18 each (plus $4 shipping), that's a tidy profit for this Baptist church in Albany, Georgia. Don't forget the 'Flywheel' T-shirt for $15.
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For the site: "As a follow up, Sherwood produced its second feature, Facing the Giants, which was picked up by Provident Films (a Sony company) and was released September 29th 2006 in 441 theaters nationwide."
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This DVD is being sold for $20 (plus $4 shipping). Oh, and you can get an autographed (by whom?) movie poster (for $30) and the autographed football (for $40).
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Cha-ching!!
Sep 8, 2007 8:06 PM
Brian Tubbs :
And the problem with this is........
Sep 9, 2007 11:20 AM
Boanerges :
$20 bucks.. !!!.. thats all..
for good wholesome entertainment!.... a good choice all around!!..
Sep 9, 2007 6:52 PM
Brian Tubbs :
I agree. Migisi seems to feel it's necessary to point out that Sherwood Baptist Church is making money on its movies. There seems to be some kind of implication that this is a problem, that it's a bad thing.
I would like to know from ANY and ALL of my liberal friends here....
Is it wrong to make money?
Is it wrong to make A LOT of money?
Sep 10, 2007 5:36 AM
Pink :
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Nothing wrong with big money.
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Sep 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Migisi :
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I was just musing on Jones' comment that 'materialism' is the god of nonChristians. Appears to be the god of Christians too...
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Science and Faith thread, post #51:
"But since you and others seem to have no interest in the subject of prayer and worship, these kinds of posts simply draw attention to the idea that naturalism and materialism being the gods of most non-believers."
Sep 10, 2007 6:37 AM
Pink :
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You have to know that Brother Jones is an exemplary example of what it means to be a prejudiced Christian.
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In a certain way, that doesn't go against him. It's more a pity than a shame.
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Problem is that he is hard at work to enlist others in his prejudicial ways.
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But, as a person, it appears he is a pretty good sort.
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Sep 10, 2007 6:38 AM
Brother_Jones :
<i>I was just musing on Jones' comment that 'materialism' is the god of nonChristians.</i>
lol. I guess you got us there. I am not comfortable with trying to defend a church that has gone into the movie business. I suppose there are all kinds of ways to justify the money box. But once the box takes on a life of its own, then all hell breaks loose.
Most churches deal in so much money that it takes a corporation status to satisfy the state. And what do most Elders know about high stakes mutual funds? ABC.
Part of the problem is hiring a full time staff and incurring all kinds of overhead. What a nightmare. It presupposes that every individual should tithe dollars instead of the church sending the collection plate packed with fifties and hundreds around at least once a month and letting widows and orphans have a free grab at it.
The day of poets tithing a song, farmers bringing in peaches, and computer geeks giving a half day up, is almost never mentioned because churches need dollars to pay staff who have a certain calling on their life. I'm not against paid staff, but paying every staff at every church is like the 11th commandment. lol.
the oldtimer with one opinion.
Sep 10, 2007 7:26 AM
Boanerges :
I'm not sure I understand either... Is that church using Christianity as a guise for commercial enterprise?
1Thessalonians 5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
So then, lets check out the church and see...?
http://www.sherwoodbaptist.net/clientimages/33770/sermonstream/freetolive01.swf
Sep 10, 2007 7:34 AM
Pink :
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Well, however one looks at things, the dominating media has to be taken into consideration.
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There was a time when the majority of Americans got almost ALL their combined news from the pulpit. Today, we get it from the tube. The tube comes in at least two different venues--television and the 'Net. These two will soon be combined into one--sure and you know that.
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DVD is a form of television and the computer combined on disk. So, if some church organizes its efforts in such a way so as to expand its outreach by using DVDs, television, or the 'Net, we can expect that to be as normal as falling off a spinning log in the water.
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Should chruches be limited as to what media is available to their membership?
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This is a question each church group must answer for itself.
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But, if anyone is going to compete in this postmodern society, they had best get in step with the rest of those forces that want an attentive audience.
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What is your target market? I guess that's the question.
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I do think that religionists need competition from forces outside their inner circles. If that means me, then, you are correct, Brother Jones. I am a competitor. I always heard that competition was good for business. Don't you think that applies to religion?
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Sep 10, 2007 7:42 AM
Brother_Jones :
<i>I do think that religionists need competition from forces outside their inner circles. If that means me, then, you are correct, Brother Jones. I am a competitor. I always heard that competition was good for business. Don't you think that applies to religion?</i>
I think it is easy to bypass migisi's point and go directly to your thought about competition. God needs a softball team that plays as good as the next town. So we bring in a ringer to play shortstop. That is the kind of thinking that causes all of us to worship the wrong thing.
Remember Jesus? If He was God, then His words about this issue must count for something. It is a sad state of affairs if we use the current world of religion to find a base line for the effort.
Why do churches need so much money anyway?
the oldtimer.
Sep 10, 2007 7:58 AM
Pink :
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<i>Why do churches need so much money anyway?</i>
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That is an extremely good question as it puts faith on the front burner.
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Sep 10, 2007 9:22 AM
Migisi :
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<i>Is that church using Christianity as a guise for commercial enterprise?</i>
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Luke 16:13 - "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." 14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight."
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Mark 6:8 - "These were his instructions: 'Take nothing for the journey except a staff-no bread, no bag, no money in your belts'."
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<i>So then, lets check out the church and see...?</i>
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As I see it, if each church would minister to it own community, and quit trying to 'reach the world'... they would indeed reach the world.
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But then, I don't really care. It's not my money they're using to attain supersize status.
Sep 10, 2007 9:24 AM
Brian Tubbs :
I think this is a case-by-case thing - or I should say church-by-church. Not all churches are the same, nor should they be. Obviously, I think all churches should serve the same Lord - Jesus being the ultimate and true head of the church, but each church will have a different cultural dynamic due to the people who make up that church.
In the case of Sherwood Baptist, they have some members and staff people that are extremely gifted and interested in media. And they have the resources to do something about that, and the vision / drive to do it. So....I say "All the power to'em."
Now, another church in a different state might try to copy-cat Sherwood and in so doing, may engage in some questionable moves or decisions to get there - well, then, now we have a problem.
Paul writes in I Corinthians that he adjusted his approach and technique to suit different audiences. To his Jewish audiences, he spoke in ways that Jews would appreciate. To his Gentile audiences, the same thing. "I am become all things to all men that I might save some." Remember that? I think that applies to generations as much as it does to cultures. And I think it applies to technological ages as well.
If the Apostle Paul were alive today, I think he'd be completely supportive of what Sherwood Baptist is doing.
Sep 10, 2007 9:26 AM
Brian Tubbs :
Migisi, the Great Commission is to "go into ALL the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature" (Mark 16:15). All churches should strive to reach as many people as they can, STARTING with their own community - but not stopping there.
Sep 10, 2007 9:49 AM
Migisi :
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<i>All churches should strive to reach as many people as they can, STARTING with their own community - but not stopping there.</i>
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Did Jesus ever say 'build a mega church to me'? Or "amass riches in my name"? NEVER! Has your church reached your whole community? Has your church fed all the hungry, clothed all the poor, housed all the homeless, and visited all the sick and imprisoned in your town? If yes, then (and only then) reaching out to surrounding communities (or 'all the world') would be in keeping with your Great Commission. And if EVERY community church did that, that would indeed impact the world. As I see it, anyway.
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Mat 25:45 - "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Sep 10, 2007 10:48 AM
Boanerges :
re: Is that church using Christianity as a guise for commercial enterprise?
Luke 16:13 - "No servant can serve two masters..."
According to Luke (thanks for the verse, Mig) if the church is doing it ~for the money only~ then they would be serving one master. If they are doing it to use the money to further the Gospel message, then they are doing as according to Jesus' command.
re: Mark 6:8 - "These were his instructions: 'Take nothing for the journey except a staff-no bread, no bag, no money in your belts'."
..lol.. relates only to the disciples....
<i>But then, I don't really care. It's not my money they're using to attain supersize status.</i>
Is this a rational statement? Me thinks not, especially appealing to logic... Sorry Mig.. but.. your bitterness is get more bitter as the days pass. What happened to your good natured self? Anyone can misquote and twist the Bible. Seriously though, rational people do not actually pay much attention to such nonsense.
Personally? I've heard all the arguments, seen the skeptic's valiant effort to discredit by claiming contradictions and so forth. Yet, after thoroughly examining their arguments, I came to the conclusion they are liars, presenting irrational positions, which is one of the reasons why I became a believer in Absolute Truth. Their arguments were convincing to me - in that they could not hold to the truth of what is written with any valid claims. I have yet to see even one so-claimed contradiction proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
I don't believe God is mindless enough to allow contractions and immoral actions - especially considering that God was unable to foresee the evolution of the modern thinking man, with all his science and reason... <i>....lol...</i>
but then.. evidence produces faith.. As it is so clearly written. Who could possibly deny that which is self-evident unless they had an agenda to push..
1 Timothy 6:20,21
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith
2 Timothy 2:16
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
Sep 10, 2007 11:17 AM
Brian Tubbs :
Quick responses....
First, you refer to "your church" (as in my church). My church is NOT a mega-church. :) And my church isn't making movies. :)
Second, Jesus said the poor will always be with us. Therefore, you're setting up a false standard when you write "Has your church fed all the hungry, clothed all the poor, housed all the homeless, and visited all the sick and imprisoned in your town?" Your false standard is "all." My answer is that our church IS engaged in these things. We've given money, food, assistance to people in need in our community. But, to say that we must meet ALL the needs in our community before engaging the wider culture is a standard that YOU are imposing on the church. It is NOT one that God has put on the church.
What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be quick to judge another church for growing big and doing things like Sherwood is doing. If God blesses a ministry like that and empowers them to do things like that, that's a GOOD thing. It's NOT something they should be ashamed of.
Sep 10, 2007 1:32 PM
Brian Tubbs :
By the way, "mega" church means big church or large church. There were 3000 souls added to the church at Jerusalem as a result of Pentecost. A 3,000-member church qualifies as a mega church.
Sep 10, 2007 4:59 PM
Pink :
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I'm undecided as to how I come down on this issue.
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I understand the value of the media; but, I also question the idea of going into the business of producing movies.
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It's not so much that a particular denominational group might gain a foothold by way of the media as it is that some nut will be able to do it as well. And, there are a few real nut cases that have commandeered the tube as a way of gaining and being in control of great wealth. That turkey John Hagee down in Texas is an example of what can go wrong.
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I'm going to think about this one.
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Sep 10, 2007 5:09 PM
Migisi :
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<i>First, you refer to "your church" (as in my church). My church is NOT a mega-church. :) And my church isn't making movies.</i> :)
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I imagine if your church was mega and producing/selling movies, buying and operating radio and TV stations, selling T-shirts, posters, autographed footballs, books and tapes, you wouldn't be here chatting with lil' ol me. You'd be too busy conferring with a financial advisors and media consultants. :)
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<i>Second, Jesus said the poor will always be with us.</i>
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Therefore, the need for churches to help the poor will always exist.
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<i>But, to say that we must meet ALL the needs in our community before engaging the wider culture is a standard that YOU are imposing on the church.</i>
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Yes. Does it make sense to send care packages to the poor in Africa when your own children are hungry and homeless?
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<i>It is NOT one that God has put on the church.</i>
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What standards did Jesus put on the church? He told Peter to 'feed my sheep'. Hunger isn't satisfied with hopeful words.
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As for wealthy mega-churches and their leaders:
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"What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?" (Mark 8:36)
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"People <i>[insert 'Churches']</i> who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction." (1 Timothy 6:9)
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Sep 10, 2007 5:45 PM
Brother_Jones :
<i>I was just musing on Jones' comment that 'materialism' is the god of nonChristians. Appears to be the god of Christians too...</i>
I was just sorta perplexed why my musing didn't make any sense to me, especially since I am the one who mused. lol.
My post #51 (where I believe you got it) in the Science and Faith didn't have a thing to do with a materialistic society and money. As you see when you look at it again, I was simply arguing that Supernatural beliefs run counter to naturalism and materialistic monism (there is only one form of reality: matter.)
Belief in the physical universe as the only reality versus belief in a Supernatural God. That was my musing.
i'm the oldtimer.
Sep 10, 2007 6:27 PM
Brian Tubbs :
Ah, Pink, there are ALREADY some 'nuts' making movies. Hollywood is full of them.
The fact of the matter is that the First Amendment freedom of speech gives everyone the right to grab a podium, bullhorn, pen, or video camera and express themselves and their points of view. It's called freedom.
Sep 10, 2007 6:30 PM
Brian Tubbs :
If the main motive of Sherwood Baptist Church is $$$$, then I agree with you on the point about people (and churches) not pursuing riches. How can I disagree? Jesus made the point. :)
However....Jesus warned against SERVING money - making money your master. Jesus did not preach against MAKING money.
It is OKAY to be rich, but not okay to make riches your primary goal in life.
Sep 11, 2007 5:18 AM
Pink :
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<i>Ah, Pink, there are ALREADY some 'nuts' making movies. Hollywood is full of them.</i>
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That's obvious; but, the main difference to which I have pointed is the fact that religious nuts zero in on the members of your congregation and work to convince them toward this or that radicalism.
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And, it seems you think that is just jim dandy.
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Sep 11, 2007 7:08 AM
Migisi :
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<i>Jesus did not preach against MAKING money.</i>
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You're right, he didn't. Jesus himself had a purse and an accountant (Judas).
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<i>It is OKAY to be rich, but not okay to make riches your primary goal in life.</i>
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And yet, Jesus said that to be perfect, one needs to sell their possessions, give everything to the poor, and <i>then</i> follow him. (Mat 19:21) Taking with you no purse or money.
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It seems to me that many churches focus too much on growing their churches - to build grand structures, campuses, to purchase and operate radio and TV stations (to reach all nations), etc. How do the needy benefit from all that? I think these churches get trapped by the god of pride, and they forget their real purpose.
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If you'll allow me a short story. The rural parish I belonged to (years ago) had a little modest church. The humble parish priest was devoted to caring for the people in that community. Didn't matter what religion, he worked tirelessly to help anyone he could. He was greatly loved. In quick time, the town grew into a yuppie burb, and a huge new church was built. When I met with the priest to arrange a marriage, he was so pleased to show me all the wonders - the foot-thick stained glass windows made in Italy, the custom-made oak pews, the gold-leafed ceilings in the chapel, the huge auditorium, the modern high-tech school, the magnificent rose garden. It was SO unlike him to brag, but that's all he did during our meeting. He was a different person. Well, in September 1990, an F5 tornado destroyed it ALL. He had nothing to brag about anymore. His focus returned to what was really important -- caring about people, not things.
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Ecclesiates repeats that it's all vanity and meaningless. Often, the prideful have to lose it all to realize that.
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"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." (Matthew 6:19) And where wind, flood, and fire renders it to a pile of worthless rubble.
Sep 11, 2007 7:47 AM
Brian Tubbs :
It's not that I think it's "jim dandy" that religious nuts or anyone who might qualify as a "nut" can make movies and influence our society. HOWEVER....
Who decides who's a "nut"? Do you? Does the government? Who decides, Pink?
p.s. Your reference to "jim dandy" reminds me of Friendly's ice cream. Makes me hungry for one of their Jim Dandy's.
Sep 11, 2007 7:51 AM
Brian Tubbs :
I preached on that story very recently. A lot of people misunderstand what Jesus was saying there. "Perfect" in that verse - and in fact in most of its references - means "complete." Jesus was saying that the rich young ruler had to take that one more step in order to be "complete" in his relationship with God.
Sep 11, 2007 6:16 PM
Pink :
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<i>Who decides who's a "nut"? Do you? Does the government? Who decides, Pink?</i>
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Some are quite obvious and easy to identify.
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Wouldn't it be great if there were a media program in which religious doctrines were openly discussed on a non-sectarian basis? For example, a program that seriously challenged Bennie Hinn and the scam he has been running for so long. I'd give support to such a program. Bennie Hinn for a few weeks; John Hagee for a few; and all the popangelists would get their turn at the pillory? The name of the tv series could be, Facing The Giants.
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Do you think such a program would stick is someone threw it at the wall?
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Sep 11, 2007 7:35 PM
Brian Tubbs :
First, there's a book written about Benny Hinn and those guys that I think is up your alley. It's called Christianity in Crisis. Info on it at Amazon at the link below...
http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Crisis-Hank-Hanegraaff/dp/0890819769
It's written by an evangelical Christian, but it's a pretty good expose on the charlatans that use Christianity to feather their own nests and exploit people in the process.
Second, the problem with a TV show like you're suggestins is the "non-sectarian" part. If you mean non-denominational, fine. If you mean non-Christian or non-religious, hmmmmmmm, we have a problem.
I think a panel discussion type show - think "McLaughlin Group" - focused on religious issues would be interesting. And one of the things they could do would be to tackle the subjects you're talking about. THe panel could be representative of the religious community in the United States, assuming it was a US-based show.
Sep 12, 2007 4:42 AM
Pink :
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I think some Christians have to start playing hard ball in public.
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The pampering of the hogwash part has gone on for too long.
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I'm pretty sure that there is an aspect of Christianity that can stand up to hard ball. Benny Hinn, John Hagee, and a lot of others will get their just deserts. So called moderates have protected these guys for far too long. Migisi has extremely valid complaints. Instead, she gets kicked in the shins a lot by those that should be far more understanding and supportive.
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Sep 12, 2007 5:22 AM
Pink :
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When Christians like myself stand up against the misguiding, the frauds and the charlatans that contort the gospel we are attacked by main liner spokespersons as though we are the bad guys.
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So, we know what happens to anyone that seeks critical insight. And, we are driven off as agents of evil.
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Go figure.
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Something is wrong when self criticism can only take place on your knees behind closed doors in darkened back rooms.
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Sep 12, 2007 7:38 AM
Migisi :
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Jesus stood up to them too.
Mat 23:
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"25 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence."
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27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
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The nature of Man hasn't changed - despite Jesus.
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<i>The name of the tv series could be, Facing The Giants.</i>
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Clever connection. I'd call it 'An Hour with a Snake Oil Salesmen'.
Sep 12, 2007 11:57 AM
Boanerges :
<i>The nature of Man hasn't changed - despite Jesus.</i>
oh, but not true my friend...
2Corinthians 5:17: Therefore <b>if any man be in Christ</b>, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
:) :) :)
Sep 12, 2007 2:25 PM
Migisi :
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What's this 'new creature' look like?
Sep 12, 2007 3:01 PM
Boanerges :
<i>What's this 'new creature' look like?</i>
now? or then?
Sep 12, 2007 3:50 PM
Migisi :
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Then and now?
Sep 12, 2007 5:31 PM
Pink :
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I don't know about the "nature of man" so much any more.
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Anyway, in the final analysis, we are individuals. Identity as a product of group membership is an idea that has long since worn out any usefulness for society. We have come to a place where we can go beyond ideologies.
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We ARE individuals. I think I recognize a true Christian Spirit when it expresses itself. You don't see an overtly amount of that around here if you get my drift.
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Sep 13, 2007 3:34 PM
Brian Tubbs :
<i>So called moderates have protected these guys for far too long. Migisi has extremely valid complaints. Instead, she gets kicked in the shins a lot by those that should be far more understanding and supportive.</i>
Pink, with respect to Migisi, I have expressed my understanding and support with respect to the pain she and her family have received from professed Christian ministries and leaders that have been abusive and manipulative. Other than personally driving up to her state, getting a list of such people from her, and then driving to each of their homes and knocking them upside the head, I don't know what more I can do.
But Migisi has, in my view, gone to the other extreme of denying the very existence of God and more or less denouncing en masse all those who profess to believe in said God and follow said God. I don't feel I need to sit back and take that, as if all Christians should share in the guilt of those who have caused her family pain. Nor do I think I should allow her arguments and charges against Christianity to go uncontested.
Or yours, for that matter. I will stand up for the Christian faith. And I do so without apology.
Sep 13, 2007 5:33 PM
Pink :
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<i>But Migisi has, in my view, gone to the other extreme of denying the very existence of God and more or less denouncing en masse all those who profess to believe in said God and follow said God.</i>
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Well, that's a complain she has put out and I think it's valid for her to do so. It isn't an argument.
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<i>I don't feel I need to sit back and take that, as if all Christians should share in the guilt of those who have caused her family pain.</i>
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I don't see that she is blaiming "all Christians" for what happened in her personal experience. She's not stupid. She knows the difference.
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<i>Nor do I think I should allow her arguments and charges against Christianity to go uncontested.</i>
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I don't suppose she thinks so either; otherwise, why would she be here?
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<i>Or yours, for that matter. I will stand up for the Christian faith. And I do so without apology.</i>
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I expect you should--at least to the extent which you believe the Christian faith to be.
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Sep 14, 2007 6:46 AM
frodo68 :
<i>And yet, Jesus said that to be perfect, one needs to sell their possessions, give everything to the poor, and then follow him. (Mat 19:21) Taking with you no purse or money.</i>
Sorry Migisi, but that's simply not the case. "A verse out of context is a pretext".
Christ didn't say that for <b>anyone</b> to be made perfect he must give up all of his posessions. He said it to a specific person. A specific person that He <b>knew</b> was burdened by by a sinful "bent" toward his posessions. That He <b>knew</b> had not, in fact, kept the commandments... but had instead cheapened the measure of what is "good" to what he himself had been able to do.
If you have such a bent... then <b>yes</b>, by all means, you need to get rid of your possessions. That doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone else.
The point is simply that <b>whatever</b> it is that keeps you from following Christ with your whole heart must be set aside. It's a reasonable point to say that great wealth makes it very hard for a person (or church) to not be focused on such things... but it most certainly happens.
Sep 14, 2007 6:50 AM
Pink :
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Mr. Frodo.
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:)
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You really think Migisi is trying to conceal something?
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Sep 14, 2007 8:49 AM
Migisi :
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<i>Sorry Migisi, but that's simply not the case. "A verse out of context is a pretext".</i>
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I did not misquote or take it out of context.
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<i>Christ didn't say that for anyone to be made perfect he must give up all of his posessions. He said it to a specific person. A specific person that He knew was burdened by by a sinful "bent" toward his posessions.</i>
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It's usually understood that when Jesus made an example of a specific person, he was providing that example for ~everyone's~ benefit and understanding. The subsequent discussion with the disciples about wealth clearly indicates this was Jesus' intent.
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<i>That He knew had not, in fact, kept the commandments... but had instead cheapened the measure of what is "good" to what he himself had been able to do.</i>
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This is your slant. Where does scripture say that Jesus knew that this rich man had not kept the commandments? This man clearly said that he ~had~ obeyed the commandments (vs 20) which Jesus listed (vs 18). I find no verse where Jesus refuted the rich man's claim. The rich man merely asked what ~more~ he should do? Jesus added another condition, in addition to the commandments, for attaining eternal life. So, per the example that Jesus' made of this rich man, if you too can claim that you have obeyed all the commandments (you haven't murdered, stolen, dishonored your parents, etc.), you're not finished. You've got one more thing to do to be 'perfect' in God's eyes (or as Brian says, to be 'complete').
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Matthew 5:48 - "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
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<i>If you have such a bent... then yes, by all means, you need to get rid of your possessions. That doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone else.</i>
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As I see it, you have such a 'bent' yourself, or you wouldn't be objecting to or exempting yourself from Jesus' instruction to the rich man. And you're certainly not the only person to do that. No doubt, it takes a truly exceptional person to rid himself of all his possessions and <i>then </i>follow Jesus. Yes, the rich man was sad. Who wouldn't be? But the man's story ends there. We don't know - from scripture - whether the man did or didn't do as Jesus had instructed.
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<i>The point is simply that whatever it is that keeps you from following Christ with your whole heart must be set aside.</i>
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Right. You must give up everything and everyone you love to be 'worthy' of Jesus: Matthew 10:37 - "Anyone who loves his father or mother more tha
Sep 14, 2007 9:31 AM
Boanerges :
<i>it's usually understood that when Jesus made an example of a specific person, he was providing that example for ~everyone's~ benefit and understanding</i>
understood to who - the skeptic! haha...
no Mig.. its clearly understood that all scriputre is for us, but not all scripture is TO us....
Sep 14, 2007 2:41 PM
Migisi :
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<i>no Mig.. its clearly understood that all scriputre is for us, but not all scripture is TO us.... </i>
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For or to, you know my meaning.
Sep 14, 2007 3:12 PM
Boanerges :
all scripture is for us.. but not all scripture is written to us.. I believe this is easily shown in scripture..... and is the basic standard for understanding the scriptures.....
for example.. the disciples ask Jesus when these things will be.. He answers them.. His answer is for us, but it is not to us.. it is a response to their questions...
this is true throughout all of scripture.. from Genesis to Revelation...
to deny this simple fact is to admit that you are not really interested in scripture, but more or less interested in mocking it.. but, really Mig.. rational people do not associate in this fashion.. Irrational people do.. that is true...
so.. what ya been up to lately? we're gonna get down to 45 tonight!.. brrrr.....
Sep 14, 2007 3:38 PM
Migisi :
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Whatever you say, Wendell.
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We're expecting our first frost tonight - so the man says. I've been busy 'winterizing' (yikes, already??)... bringing my house plants indoors, burning my brush pile, cutting weeds, and collecting prairie flower seeds for next spring. Busy busy. Something interesting last week... I found an orphaned fawn in our prairie (gives meaning to 'build it and they will come'). Poor little thing - kinda late in the year for such a young one - not weaned, very skinny, and weak. It had been wandering around as if lost for a couple of days. No mom showed up. I managed to catch it and confine it, which took some doing. Their hooves are very sharp, and they bite. But hey, I handle eagles, so how dangerous could a fawn be? Tee hee. I didn't have a clue how to help it (birds are my thing), nor proper housing for deer, so I brought it to a deer rehabber. It's doing great, from what I hear.
Sep 14, 2007 4:00 PM
Boanerges :
<i>It's doing great, from what I hear.</i>
wow! thats awesome, Mig.. a very lucky Fawn!...
I would love to have some of your prairie seeds for my yard next spring! you can send me some if its not too much trouble..(?).. just be sure to not put a return address on - haha!... (joke)..
I did read an article that stated many of our native birds are dying off... probably just an evolutionary thing I suppose?...
I did watch a bunch of rowdy squirrels the other day.. I was thinking that, probably, every tree in the world (almost) has a family of squirrels in them!.. thats a lot of squirrels....
I still got a raccoon in my crawlspace... haha.. oh well, raccoons are people too I guess.. They probably get just as cold as we do in the winter.. so, as long as he (or she) is a nice and easy squatter... I suppose they can stay for awhile (no rent of course)... But, last year it went after the lil Robins in my eves.. they were all screaming for their lives.. I got up and chased that ole coon off.. haha.. its a war out there for sure!
:)
Sep 14, 2007 5:03 PM
Pink :
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:)
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Nicely put.
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Sep 14, 2007 5:16 PM
Migisi :
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<i>I would love to have some of your prairie seeds for my yard next spring! you can send me some if its not too much trouble..(?).. just be sure to not put a return address on - haha!... (joke)..</i>
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Now's the time to go walking in your nearby prairie preserve (or in the unmowed roadside ditches), and pop off the dry seed heads. It's fun.
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<i>I did read an article that stated many of our native birds are dying off... probably just an evolutionary thing I suppose?...</i>
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Many people don't realize that populations are cyclic for many birds species. I notice it in rehab, and in my bird banding. In birds of prey especially, increases and decreases are related to the abundance or decline in their prey base (which is cyclic too). And weather patterns heavily impact bird counts during migration. So, some birders might assume a particular species is in trouble when it's merely in a natural low cycle. It takes many years of surveying to determine its real status. But, yes, some species are indeed threatened or endangered. I think the cause is more environmental than evolutionary though. Sorry - I'm rambling on about science. (wink)
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<i>I did watch a bunch of rowdy squirrels the other day.. I was thinking that, probably, every tree in the world (almost) has a family of squirrels in them!.. thats a lot of squirrels....</i>
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Tree rats seem to be everywhere. I've even got em out here in the great soy-corn desert!
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<i>I still got a raccoon in my crawlspace... haha.. oh well, raccoons are people too I guess.. They probably get just as cold as we do in the winter..</i>
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Have you ever tried on a raccoon fur coat? Believe me, they're NOT cold!
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<i>so, as long as he (or she) is a nice and easy squatter... I suppose they can stay for awhile (no rent of course)...</i>
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Just be careful. Coons are carriers of rabies, so if you've got pets, they better be current on their shots. Just a sniff of infected coon urine is all it takes for them to contract both rabies and distemper. If you get bitten, you'll have to take the rabies vaccine series. I hope you have your garbage can lids locked shut. Man, they spread trash all over the place! Bad tenants!
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<i>But, last year it went after the lil Robins in my eves.. they were all screaming for their lives.. I got up and chased that ole coon off.. haha.. its a war out there for sure!</i>
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No doubt!! They can sure do a job on bird populations. And, they eat baby squirrels too. You have just what it needs
Sep 15, 2007 1:22 AM
Boanerges :
<i>and an ol' softy for a landlord. happy</i>
ahh yes.. (hmm).. (thinking)... you're probably right.. yea.. I would say you are. ahh well, I suppose it takes a special hand to know these critters.... :)... thanks for the advice, Mig...
its better for them... either... to get them out into the right place.. so they can be themselves (if that exists in the city).. or take a chance and make sure they are 'fixed' - such as it were... hmmm.. what do you think? I'vde only really seen the ole coon once or twice.. but.. I know he's there.. My step dad has got a cage trap... I could try to lure him... but.. not sure if the vet. would be willing to see a coon for his next appointment - let alone the cost to myself.. ?..
thoughts?
Sep 15, 2007 8:09 AM
Migisi :
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<i>its better for them... either... to get them out into the right place.. so they can be themselves (if that exists in the city)..</i>
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What can be done?
Option #1: when the coon is out at night, board up the crawl space. (It'll find another home down the street.)
Option #2: live-trap it, release it in a distant wilderness area, board up the crawl space.
Option #3: shoot it, board up the crawl space.
Option #4: allow it to remain, be sure pet shots are current, and avoid being bitten. (But remember, you won't just have one tenant, you'll eventually have a family.)
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Options #1-3: be sure there are no babies in the crawl space before you board it up.
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<i>or take a chance and make sure they are 'fixed' - such as it were... hmmm.. what do you think?</i>
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I don't know any vet who will spay/neuter a wild animal (except ~maybe~ a feral cat). Most won't even provide medical help when needed because they're untrained and inexperienced in wildlife medicine. It's left to wildlife rehabbers to provide the care.
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<i>My step dad has got a cage trap... I could try to lure him... but.. not sure if the vet. would be willing to see a coon for his next appointment - let alone the cost to myself.. ?..</i>
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If it was me, I'd choose Option #2 - bait my 'Have a Heart' trap with a can of wet smelly cat food. After capture, release it in a distant wilderness area. The cat food might lure in a skunk, possum, or your neighbor's cat. Except for the cat, release the others in the wilderness too. Wear welder's gloves for protection when handling the cage trap, and be very careful not to get scratched or bitten. Just open the trap door and let them leave on their own. Board up the crawl space so no animal can move in. I've used all options, except #4. (Option #3 - when abnormal behavior associated with disease was obvious.)
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I did animal control years ago. Urban raccoons, skunks, and possums were most numerous and troublesome.
Sep 15, 2007 3:24 PM
Boanerges :
great advice, Mig...!
thanks for taking the time.. appreciate it much...
guess I will try to trap it and relocate it somewhere...!!
:)
ps... umm.. I do like wandering around looking for stuff.. and do find it fun.. but.. its much funner to get a care package via the uspostal service!! (wink)....
Sep 17, 2007 8:25 AM
Pink :
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Milton Friedman has been compared to Karl Marx as being a mental giant.
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His theories on economy are highly regarded by the Neo-Con conservatives of the world.
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Here is a YouTube video that gives a little insight into his mind.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kieyjfZDUIc
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Here, you get to face a real giant of American political thinking. He is dead now; but, he lives on in the minds of America's right wing leadership.
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