Evidence for Jesus: Historical Proof for the Man Behind Christianity

Jesus Christ is the most significant figure in all of human history, yet there are some who believe he never existed at all. Is there sufficient evidence to prove that Jesus was real? What can we know about the life of Jesus Christ?

The Mystery of Ancient History

There is a reason why the History Channel does more documentaries on World War II than the Punic Wars. Television is a visual medium, and we have no film footage of the Punic Wars. We don't even have still images from that period, since photography wasn't invented until the 19th century. What's more, we have no eyewitnesses to the Punic Wars still alive to interview for any such documentary.

Does this mean, however, that ancient history is unknowable? Or that the quest for truth in the pages of our distant past is a hopeless endeavor?

Standards of Evidence for Ancient History

Only an extreme cynic who doubts everything and mistrusts everyone will say that ancient history is unknowable. Such a disparager, however, is incapable of honest inquiry, since he or she has long since given up on the very possibility of truth. Most people, fortunately, do not fall into such a category, and are willing to accept that at least some truths can be ascertained from the study of ancient history.

European scholar Amy Orr-Ewing decisively refutes the skepticism surrounding the study of history. (You can listen to her presentation here). She argues that history is knowable via a critical analysis of the following:

Moreover, while we can readily acknowledge bias in ancient historians, this does not mean they are completely untrustworthy. Eusebius, a chronicler of early church history, was shamelessly biased in favor of Constantine. This leads us to certainly bring a higher critical scrutiny to Eusebius' claims concerning Constantine, but doesn't mean that Eusebius was a fraud and a liar. It certainly doesn't mean that everything Eusebius wrote deserves to be cast aside. In short, much can be learned from ancient history, utilizing those sources available to us from the past.

What about Jesus?

This brings us to Jesus. What evidence is there from ancient history to point us to the reality of a historical Jesus? In addition to the numerous references to Jesus in ancient religious literature (references that range from the New Testament to the Gnostic writings to even the Quran), there are references to Jesus by the following:

A note on Josephus: While one of the two references to Jesus was likely tampered with, historians agree there was at least a core reference to Jesus prior to its being edited. Thus, Josephus’ references constitute, at the very least, evidence of the reality of Jesus as a historical figure. In the words of one Princeton Seminary scholar: "We can now be as certain as historical research will presently allow that Josephus did refer to Jesus."

And What about those Religious Documents?

Radical critics of Christianity dismiss religious writings immediately, particularly those from the Bible, saying: "You can't prove the Bible with the Bible." This superficial (and frankly vacuous) argument misses an obvious point. Before the Bible was "the Bible," it was (and, in the eyes of the skeptic, still is) a collection of ancient writings.

Accordingly, those ancient writings deserve (at the very least) to be analyzed by the same standards as any other ancient document. The Gospel of Luke, for example, cannot be embraced by mainstream, secular historians as "divinely inspired." Such a term means little to the practicing historian. But the Gospel of Luke CAN and SHOULD be assessed as a first century document authored by a man who believed in Jesus and counted himself among Jesus' followers.

Looking at all the New Testament writings with this critical (but intellectually fair) standard reveals much about Jesus, which can be accepted as true. These facts include:

It is the overwhelming consensus of historical scholars - both biblical and non-biblical, Christian and non-Christian, conservative and liberal - that the first century figure known as Jesus of Nazareth really lived. The late English scholar Michael Grant wrote:

[I]f we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.

Scholar R.T. France writes: “Non-Christian evidence…substantiates the fact of Jesus’ existence, his popular following, his execution and the rough date.”

The Bottom Line

While some may argue that Jesus' life has been embellished, it is an absurd to deny the existence of the historical Jesus. British New Testament scholar I. Howard Marshall says it best: “It is not possible to explain the rise of the Christian church or the writing of the Gospels and the stream of tradition that lies behind them without accepting the fact that the Founder of Christianity actually existed.”

Nov 26, 2007 7:33 AM

Pink :

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Not a lot of people deny the idea that Jesus is an historical person who actually existed.
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This particular paragraph from the article this post references, "Only an extreme cynic who doubts everything and mistrusts everyone will say that ancient history is unknowable. Such a disparager, however, is incapable of honest inquiry, since he or she has long since given up on the very possibility of truth. Most people, fortunately, do not fall into such a category, and are willing to accept that at least some truths can be ascertained from the study of ancient history.", frames any who question it's premise. Anyone and everyone that does question anything is seen as "an extreme cynic who doubts everything" and is mistrusting of truth. The statement definitely is a spin. That's okay--no complaints on that; but, it is good to recognize that it is a biased spin. So, we can take the article for what it is worth.
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So, the first question wonders to whom does the article address itself.
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Nov 26, 2007 9:15 AM

Brian Tubbs :

To be blunt, it's addressed to those people who are searching "evidence for Jesus" on the Internet search engines. :)

Nov 26, 2007 9:33 AM

Pink :

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And, so, the second question wonders how the article expects its readers to take the insult that anyone who questions it is an extreme cynic. Is it designed to turn them into little timmies?
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Nov 26, 2007 9:37 AM

Boanerges :

Excellent article, Brian... Especially considering the limitation of article length... informative, good resources and easy to read. A worthy article for the sincere seeker of truth....

Romans 1:16-18
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Nov 26, 2007 9:55 AM

Brian Tubbs :

Pink, re-read the quote...

"Only an extreme cynic who doubts everything and mistrusts everyone will say that ancient history is unknowable. Such a disparager, however, is incapable of honest inquiry, since he or she has long since given up on the very possibility of truth. Most people, fortunately, do not fall into such a category, and are willing to accept that at least some truths can be ascertained from the study of ancient history."

I went after those who claim history (esp ancient history) is "unknowable." I did not extend that "insult" to include those who raise questions about Jesus.

In case Migisi is lurking :), she hasn't gone as far as to suggest that history is unknowable. But she has raised objections to any certitude about Jesus' existence. My "insult" therefore is NOT directed at someone like her.

The people I had in mind with my "insult" are those extreme postmodernists who have completely revised the study of history to the point that the discovery of information is cast into doubt - and history becomes little more than a screen upon which we project our personal perceptions. It is my contention that, while our knowledge of history is LIMITED (esp the further back we go), there are still some things we can KNOW about the past.

Nov 26, 2007 10:06 AM

Pink :

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I guess I am one of those that believes history is unknowable in any exact way; although the general stream is well known.
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Nov 26, 2007 10:39 AM

Brian Tubbs :

I guess I am one of those that believes history is unknowable in any exact way.

Touche', my friend, now YOU are the one framing. :)

The two significant words in your sentence are "any" and "exact."

If you were to change "any" to "an," I would agree with you 100%. We cannot know EXACTLY what happened in all of history.

However, you use the word "any," and that opens things up quite a bit - much further than I go along with.

There ARE SOME exact things we can know about history. By "exact things," I mean specific information or tangible, verifiable facts.

We know that Julius Caesar was assassinated on the Ides of March, 44 B.C.

We know that Marc Antony had an affair with Cleopatra.

We know that the apostle Paul wrote the book of I Corinthians.

We know that Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea.

We know that Constantine legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire.

We know that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the wall in Wittenberg, Germany.

We know that Thomas Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

And on and on.

I could list out THOUSANDS (literally) of facts we KNOW from history. Tens of thousands, in fact.

Nov 26, 2007 12:32 PM

Pink :

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That wasn't a frame--it was a spin. :)
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The reason we cannot know in any exact way is that records are written by people with a bias. We CAN be pretty sure of things; but, we cannot know for absolute sure. That's what I meant.
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For example, history regarding our intrusion into Iraq is not being recorded accurately. We have a government administration that is given to obfuscating the truth in such a way that it is next to impossible to know what is going on.
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That throws a sickly cast of doubt over all sorts of history. While we can all abhor the things that Hitler's Nazi regime undoubtedly carried out during the thirties through the war years, it is impossible to know the exact truth of the matters involved.
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As far as I know, one of the oldest truisms of history is that it is always written by the winners--the ones that prevail and survive. So, that puts much of what we know about Nazi Germany in some sense of doubt and it will put much of what will be known about American foreign relations during the Bush years in doubt.
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These statements of mine make me a cynic. Am I an "extreme" cynic? That will depend on who you ask, won't it?
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Nov 26, 2007 1:45 PM

Boanerges :

The reason we cannot know in any exact way is that records are written by people with a bias

and.. how do you know that, but not the other? that is the pure definition of bias.. if I am not mistaken!.....

but.. my only entrance here was to make a comment in support of Brian....

I'll allow you to ponder your predicament.... :)

Nov 27, 2007 4:55 AM

Pink :

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I'll allow you to ponder your predicament.... :)
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Your generosity is overwhelming.
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But, my predicament? What's that?
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The first time I heard that comment about history was from a professor in college. And, I've heard it several times since then.
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We read history through the minds of one bias or other.
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Nov 27, 2007 7:36 AM

Boanerges :

well.. there is some truth to that.. but.. its not the total truth, Phil.. obviously...

we can, in fact, know, verifiable historical facts.....

why argue that is not a fact... :)

Nov 27, 2007 8:40 AM

Pink :

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why argue that [we can, in fact, know, verifiable historical facts.....] is not a fact... :)

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I'm not arguing that.
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My only point was and is that all historical records are not verifiable facts.
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Nov 27, 2007 9:55 AM

Boanerges :

if that is true, Phil.. then the logical conclusion is that everything you object to is in fact, unverifiable and biased..

now then.. if that is true.. then why waste time on such meaningless dribble?.. (dribble meaning subjects of non-verification)....

it would be so.. o.. pointless... better to just head for the beach for a day of sun and fun.....

Did you have a gr8 Turkey day?

Nov 27, 2007 10:21 AM

Brian Tubbs :

My only point was and is that all historical records are not verifiable facts.

I'll buy that. That wording, though, is slightly - but significantly - different from the way you first put it. But, nevertheless, we are in agreement with the above.

Nov 27, 2007 10:21 AM

Brian Tubbs :

Thanks for the compliment on the article, Wendell. How was your Turkey Day?

Nov 27, 2007 11:10 AM

Pink :

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We spent our Thanksgiving day was with our oldest daughter and youngest son. And, it was pretty good, thanks. I know yours was as well.
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if that is true, Phil.. then the logical conclusion is that everything you object to is in fact, unverifiable and biased..
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You jumped to that conclusion which is not logical at all. We all relate with what is made apparent to us whether it is actually and exactly true or not. And, we relate with each other.
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Some of us are so freaked out that we're schizoid; but, that doesn't apply to any of us here. At least I don't think it does.
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:)
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Nov 27, 2007 11:26 AM

Pink :

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"That wording... is slightly [and] significantly - different from the way you first put it."
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Regarding your use of the word, significantly, how is that so?
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Nov 27, 2007 12:28 PM

Boanerges :

good to hear you had a good time.. I did, as you guessed.. A verifiable fact? because it is now history.. hehe... and as written! If, say.. 100 yrs from now, some poor soul reads this, he will say.. hmmm.. is that REALLY REALLY a verifiable fact?.. haha.. but.. you and I know that indeed.. it is.. as I just verified it with you...

neway.. I think the holidays get better, as I get older.... time is fleeting and those who are closest to me won't be here for much longer.. life is up and down, as I am certain you are well aware...

back to the message at hand...

You jumped to that conclusion which is not logical at all.

Oh? is the following reason, you reason? okie.. so I will now read it...

We all relate with what is made apparent to us whether it is actually and exactly true or not.

I don't agree.. generally.. but lets get specific..
Question 1: what is an example to consider?...

Some of us are so freaked out that we're schizoid; but, that doesn't apply to any of us here. At least I don't think it does.

but.. hold one.. you tossed a foul ball...!! I do not think that relying on emotions and feelings is a way to determine what is truth.. just cuz some people are like that, does not make a truth.....

Nov 27, 2007 12:31 PM

Boanerges :

Thanks, Brian.. all was well... how about for you...?....

Nov 27, 2007 12:34 PM

Pink :

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Foul balls are hit not tossed. That was a curve ball and I pitched it to you. You swung and you hit a pop up right to me. So, here comes the wind-up for the next pitch.
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:)
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How-some-ever, you asked for an example to consider regarding my comment that we operate from what is made apparent.
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You threw a slow ball to me right over the plate.
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O.K., here's a big one for you. The Iraq War of Occupation. America related with what was made apparent by the Bush Administration's spokespersons. Keee-rack! Right over the fence. :)
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Would you like a hundred thousand other examples?
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And, that was the pitch back atcha.
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Have you noticed that Brian likes to play football?
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Nov 27, 2007 12:35 PM

Migisi :

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I do not think that relying on emotions and feelings is a way to determine what is truth.. just cuz some people are like that, does not make a truth..... 
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True nuff, Bo. Kinda like saying I had a good time on Turkey day. If you asked others who were there, they might not share my POV (feeling). Their history of Turkey day might be written entirely different. So, which is the truth? Mine, or theirs, or both?

Nov 27, 2007 12:39 PM

Pink :

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One thing is for sure. Everyone raved and raved about the cheese cake and you never showed.
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It was gone the next day. I only had one bite. It was made from the original New York Style recipe with two teaspoons of Cointreau and the zest of one lemon.
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Nov 27, 2007 1:12 PM

Boanerges :

ahhh.. hold up!!! its fallin back into play... off to 1st...

O.K., here's a big one for you. The Iraq War of Occupation. America related with what was made apparent by the Bush Administration's spokespersons. Keee-rack! Right over the fence

okie.. so, we can know for a fact, some facts..
#1 A war in Iraq occured....
#2 ... ( add more to this space)

so - with that knowledge, we know that the facts are now in order.. and, can we know what the truth is? Of course we can...

don't we know that already?

now.. to relate this to the thread title.. how does this equate. give us an example....

your ball..

Nov 27, 2007 1:16 PM

Boanerges :

true nuff, Bo. Kinda like saying I had a good time on Turkey day. If you asked others who were there, they might not share my POV (feeling). Their history of Turkey day might be written entirely different. So, which is the truth? Mine, or theirs, or both?

but.. what is the main truth?
#1 Turkey day occurred!...
#2 not all were joyful or happy....

So, the question is not based on what one felt or not.. the premise of your statement is based on Turkey Day.. not peoples feelings on that day....

Nov 27, 2007 4:00 PM

Brian Tubbs :

Pink and whoever else is interested, I encourage you to listen to this audio excerpt from a speech by Amy Orr-Ewing...

http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=182&TopicID=4&CategoryI D=6

In a word, she is BRILLIANT!

Nov 27, 2007 6:02 PM

Pink :

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so - with that knowledge, we know that the facts are now in order.. and, can we know what the truth is? Of course we can...
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So, what are the facts, Wendell. What is the truth?
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You'll never put one out of the park as long as you let that bat rest on your shoulder.
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Some times it takes courage to swing at the ball when there's a crowd watching.
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Nov 27, 2007 6:32 PM

Pink :

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Pretty good.
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Nov 28, 2007 9:01 AM

Boanerges :

facts? concerning what?.....

Nov 28, 2007 9:16 AM

Pink :

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Boanerges tries to be coy with this quip, "facts? concerning what?....."
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Right! Concerning what?
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As to whether the rain will hurt the rhubarb or not.
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What else?
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Nov 28, 2007 9:27 AM

Boanerges :

I guess that all depends?.....
Is it biased information that is unverifiable?

Nov 28, 2007 9:30 AM

Pink :

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Supposing the rhubarb is in cans.
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But, maybe that was last week. Was someone there to verify it? And, could we trust them? What if there were a dozen people each of whom claimed to have been there and four said the rhubarb was in cans and four said it was not and four said they don't remember seeing any rhubarb either in or out of the cans. Then what?
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Do you know the price of eggs in Russia? Who will verify that?
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Nov 28, 2007 9:58 AM

Boanerges :

when in doubt.. always resort to your foundation....

even if no answer is true.. then, we know one thing that is true.. that no answer is true.

now.. if that is true.. then surely the truth is to be found...

otherwise. I say... better head to the beach or something.. life just got a minute shorter.....

Nov 28, 2007 10:09 AM

Pink :

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Life continues on and on and on regardless of our ability to share it.
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But, to play your game, we cannot know that no answer is true. Those people were only reporting what they observed about the rhubarb--no more and no less.
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Now, then, (as you would say) there goes your point. ..^^..
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Life is a continuum and we are fortunate enough to have had some share in it. Hopefully, we will continue for some time to come.
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What does it mean that you are conscious of your share in life? With all your knowledge of absolute truth, are you able to explain what your consciousness is?
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I be gone.
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later

Nov 28, 2007 10:45 AM

Boanerges :

Those people were only reporting what they observed about the rhubarb--no more and no less.

re: "Supposing the rhubarb is in cans. But, maybe that was last week."

Phil.. lets not get ridiculous... anyone asking a question with "supposing" will always end up in - supposing.. its a no brainer.. and really, has no relevance to what is a verifiable fact or not..

I mean.. come on.. do you really want a true conversation, as I am trying.. or, are we simply wasting time on suppositions concerning the ponderings of "suppose"....

I mean.. my interest level with these types of discussion is limited in my here and now world. That was not true several years ago here, but today it is.. I enjoying have a good reasonable conversation with you, but.. I mean.. this is more or less an exercise in vanity...

Nov 28, 2007 12:14 PM

Pink :

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Actually, I thought we were having some fun.
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Will the rain hurt the rhubarb?
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Not if it's in cans?
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Did you think that was serious?
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I thought we were just having some fun while the rescue workers were out looking for Brother Jones.
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this is more or less an exercise in vanity...
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More like an exercise in futility.
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But, that appears to be happening for the entire site, doesn't it?
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:)
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Nov 28, 2007 2:37 PM

Boanerges :

But, that appears to be happening for the entire site, doesn't it?
it does.... okie.. I had some fun with it then.. :) no biggie...
futility and vanity are about the same from my reference..
but. futility pretty much raps it up in a nut-shell...
or maybe a can o rhubarb...
I like rhubarb pie!.. mmmm... mm...
you don't think there is some weeee chance of going to hell for such a sinful pleasure, do you? (wink)...

where's a Catholic priest when ya need one!..

Nov 28, 2007 3:33 PM

Pink :

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I think you should give up on the idea of Hell, Wendell. There ain't no such place after death. But, there is a lot of Hell on Earth for a lot of people.
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Nov 29, 2007 7:11 AM

Boanerges :

I do not believe heaven can exist without a hell that exists..

otherwise... anyone can do anything and still make it to heaven.. that to me would be a true hell...

Nov 29, 2007 7:27 AM

Pink :

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There ain't no Heaven either.
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That's pie in the sky and been fed to us as though we were little children that didn't want to get a piece of coal in our Christmas stocking.
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But, it's keeping YOU in line and, so, I guess it's not all bad.
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:)

Nov 29, 2007 7:27 AM

Migisi :

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where's a Catholic priest when ya need one!..
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I can stand in for one, Bo. I know all the rules. So, would you like condemnation or absolution for liking rhubarb pie? Hee hee.
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anyone can do anything and still make it to heaven.. that to me would be a true hell...
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Option 3: there's no hell or heaven, and anyone can do anything and go nowhere.

Nov 29, 2007 7:42 AM

Boanerges :

Option 3: there's no hell or heaven, and anyone can do anything and go nowhere.

If that is true, then would never know it.. and.. life would be of little value...

Its not a matter of 'keeping in line' as it is more a matter of.. does life continue.. I believe it does, as 80 some years on this planet and thats it, seems too implausible to me....

I do believe in a heaven, and a hell... not because a church taught it to me, but that, in my own mind I cannot reconcile the fact the we are here - then we are not... seems kinda worthless and futile from my viewpoint...

So, would you like condemnation or absolution for liking rhubarb pie? Hee hee.

Uhmmm.. can I just write "I won't" on the wall, say, like 10 times or something! haha..

Nov 29, 2007 7:54 AM

Pink :

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If that is true, then would never know it.. and.. life would be of little value...
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Now, that is very, very sad--in deed
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If our creator (whom-so-what-so-ever) had the grace to provide life, it seems to me that we ought to--in the least of all cases--be absolutely full of gratitude. It is the most praiseworthy of all gifts we shall ever receive.
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Nov 29, 2007 7:58 AM

Boanerges :

yeah right, Phil.. probably true for you... but.. what about all the untold millions who suffer from a multitude of things, no less than starving to death, tortured to death, abuse of all kinds, etc.. etc..

and you believe a "creator" gave that life to someone to be grateful for, but at the end of that life is nothing!

That kind of God would be the KING of HELL..... and it that is true, then, there most certainly would have to be a KING of heaven!

Nov 29, 2007 8:54 AM

Pink :

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"... what about all the untold millions who suffer from a multitude of things, no less than starving to death, tortured to death, abuse of all kinds, etc.. etc..
"and you believe a 'creator' gave that life to someone to be grateful for, but at the end of that life is nothing!"
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I believe post modernity is on the brink of discoveries far beyond our fondest dreams of reality and of what it is.
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But, that's another story. These statements you make that I have included in this post hit the nail on the head and point out the basis on which Progressives build their most important values of America's common wealth. Jesus taught us to "do unto others as we would do unto ourselves" and selfishly pig-headed Conservatives want the poor to pull themselves up by their boot straps. When selfishness is the basis of one's values, millions "suffer from a multitude of things, no less than starving to death, tortured to death, abuse of all kinds, etc.. etc..".
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http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/r/r040.html

Nov 29, 2007 9:25 AM

Boanerges :

yeah.. but that does not answer your previous statement of: "if our creator (whom-so-what-so-ever) had the grace to provide life, it seems to me that we ought to--in the least of all cases--be absolutely full of gratitude. It is the most praiseworthy of all gifts we shall ever receive."

why be in gratitude to a creator that created a life full of misery, perpetrated by others.. that makes no sense to me.... and I certainly would have no gratitude to that creator... none whatsoever...... in fact, it would be a demon no less.

and if that is true.. then certainly non-demons would exist! I cannot imagine living an eternity in a world of only feuding demon creator gods...

Nov 29, 2007 9:43 AM

Pink :

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You seem to labor from the common problem of all absolutists or, should I say, apologists?
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The problem is created by people acting as though the victim is responsibility for any impediments to their welfare and advancement in society. Blaming the victim--impoverished people--in the under classes for not achieving is a flat out ruse designed to help the upper crust maintain its position of privilege in society. Claiming, for example, that the wealthy know how to spend their money better than the government is a cop out for personal responsibility.
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And, claiming that the Creator is or should be responsible for any negativity is part of the same ruse.
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Nov 29, 2007 9:53 AM

Migisi :

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I believe it does, as 80 some years on this planet and thats it, seems too implausible to me....
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It's more than plausible, Bo. It's FACT - that ALL physical life on this planet is finite. After death on this planet, does existance continue on somewhere else for other life forms (trees, animals, bugs, etc.)? If not, why should our human form be the only exception to God's natural laws?
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I do believe in a heaven, and a hell...in my own mind I cannot reconcile the fact the we are here - then we are not... seems kinda worthless and futile from my viewpoint...
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Our end is certainly hard to accept - but we MUST. You wrote 'the fact'. Yes, it's fact that we're here, and then gone. All the more reason to treasure every minute we have, and make our lives worth something TO SOMEONE ELSE. So, I say --- DO something exceptionally marvelous FOR someone - BE exceptionally wonderful TO someone, and ~they~ will proclaim your value... while you're here ~and~ when you're gone. In that way, we live on.
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Uhmmm.. can I just write "I won't" on the wall, say, like 10 times or something! haha.. 
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You have to fast from rhubarb pie forever. As a reminder, write all over your kitchen walls 'Rhubarb pie is evil!' That goes for everything else you like, Bo. Guilt guilt guilt. :)

Nov 29, 2007 10:14 AM

Pink :

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Our end is certainly hard to accept - but we MUST. You wrote 'the fact'. Yes, it's fact that we're here, and then gone. All the more reason to treasure every minute we have, and make our lives worth something TO SOMEONE ELSE. So, I say --- DO something exceptionally marvelous FOR someone - BE exceptionally wonderful TO someone, and ~they~ will proclaim your value... while you're here ~and~ when you're gone. In that way, we live on.
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Pretty impressive outlook on life, I'd say. You didn't get there over night. Congratulations. Your children are blessed through you. :)
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Once we understand how the self is created, our fears and worries evaporate into nothingness. We are the individual expression of the culture in which we grow.

Nov 29, 2007 10:46 AM

Brian Tubbs :

Pink, there's absolutely NO way you can authoritatively say "there ain't no heaven." The truth is that we can't KNOW scientifically (for certain) whether heaven or hell exists. Not while we're in this life anyway.

I believe they do, based on not only biblical revelation - but also on the observed spiritual dimension to the human race. That spiritual presence in human history points to something bigger and larger than what we interact with directly through our primary senses. There IS a reality greater than ourselves. All the world's religions recognize this.

Nov 29, 2007 11:58 AM

Pink :

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You're correct, of course. I knew it when I wrote it.
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And, as for there being something bigger and larger, I agree with that. But, I don't think we can know what it is.
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How-some-ever ( :) ) from what I have learned about the development of our mind and of the self, whatever that is, I don't believe that we--as we are--will transcend into it. I think our brains are similar to computers--when they're dead, they're dead.
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Is there a possibility the memories and awareness in it could be transferred into some other container where "we" can experience continued awareness? That would be interesting, wouldn't it?
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It's nice to think that would be so.
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The BIG kicker is that in such a vast and what appears to be endless reality of the universe with all its galaxies, all things are possible. If you can visualize it, then maybe ......
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So, we take our chances.
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:)

Nov 29, 2007 1:47 PM

Brian Tubbs :

You're speculating, and (surprise...surprise) I'm going to say there's NOTHING wrong with that. I think it's healthy to expand one's mental horizons, chew on new concepts, test ideas, etc. We should all do that. (Are you surprised I would say that?)

However, I think that, after the brainstorming ends, we have to come to a time of analysis. Paul says that we should "prove all things." So, putting your speculation to such an analysis, I think it comes up wanting compared to what the Bible says about the afterlife.

The Bible's description of heaven and hell is logical and plausible. And it's compelling. So much so that it's worthy of more respect and attention than the dismissal you APPEARED to hand out earlier in this discussion.

If I've offended anyone in this, I apologize. Not my intent. I'm trying to be fair and balanced.

Nov 29, 2007 2:14 PM

Pink :

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I'm not surprised with your comments.
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I think we underestimate the brain power that was exhibited by world leaders by the time the first century rolled around.
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The way society works almost automatically calls up in depth religious concepts about the supernatural. Curiosity is a universal motivator. It is the way many speakers get the rapt attention of their audiences. So, we naturally get a sense of something bigger and larger than what we are able to see.
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But, science is beginning to take our understandings apart and we're looking much deeper than ever before into the workings of society. We are learning how we get to think the way we think. Of course, the research isn't going on in any arenas where the deeply religious hang out. At a certain point, the deeply religious turn and run away from discourse on anything that seriously threatens their beliefs. They DO NOT WANT to know their weak spots. Most of us resist such knowledge. (Migisi's quote about opinions and facts.)
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Those world leaders worked with models about the supernatural that worked very well. The Egyptians had a form of religion that kept the people in tow and the Romans were no dummies when it came to manipulating the masses. They developed some of the most effective methods that are applied on the people today. Human beings are fascinated with the idea of an "after life" as well as with the ideas of some ultimate justice administered by some judge in the "other world" that follows this one.
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We are easily pacified.
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The Path To Peace

"The method of authority will always govern the mass of mankind; and those who wield the various forms of organized force in the state will never be convinced that dangerous reasoning ought not be suppressed in some way. If liberty of speech is to be untrammeled from the grosser forms of constraint, then uniformity of opinion will be secured by a moral terrorism to which the respectability of society will give its thorough approval. Following the method of authority is the path of peace. Certain non-conformities are permitted; certain others, considered unsafe, are forbidden. These are different in different countries and in different ages; but, wherever you are, let it be known that you seriously hold a tabooed belief, and you may be perfectly sure of being treated with a cruelty less brutal but more refined than hunting you like a wolf. Thus, the greatest intellectual benefactors of mankind have never dared, and dare not now,

Nov 29, 2007 2:35 PM

Boanerges :

But, I don't think we can know what it is.
I don't place God is such a small box as that. I believe, if God is, then certainly that God would want us to know that He is and that He would be able to get across the things that He wants us to know....
My faith is secure in the fact that the Bible is accurate, provable in its 66 books.. Especially with the Signature of God being revealed to ALL men.. His prophetic record..... (Peter recalls the same and even says it is a 'more sure' certainty than even his first hand eye witness account, to which he was murdered for...
Isaiah (paraphrase) "I reveal the ending from the beginning"...
that is more powerful and definite than your supposition that the 'creator' cannot communicate with his creation.....

Nov 29, 2007 2:46 PM

Pink :

.
"...more powerful and definite than your supposition that the 'creator' cannot communicate with his creation....."
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That's another of your misrepresentations. I never said or implied such a thing.
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But, keep on writing it over and over and over and over until the day you die. At least you will keep yourself convinced.
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Nov 29, 2007 4:21 PM

Boanerges :

That's another of your misrepresentations. I never said or implied such a thing.

but.. at least in my opinion, you did.. now, if you are claiming you did not imply it.. then no.. I am not going to "But, keep on writing it over and over and over and over until the day you die. At least you will keep yourself convinced". if that is not true.. jeez...

but you did say: you don't think we can 'know it'... that implies to me as a - no......

am I wrong in that, based on what you said? If so, then st8'n me out...
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Nov 29, 2007 5:17 PM

Pink :

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am I wrong in that, based on what you said? If so, then st8'n me out... 
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Your father left home completely frustrated in trying to straighten you out.
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I'm not even going to try.
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:)

Nov 29, 2007 6:35 PM

Boanerges :

good...!!
kinda hard to st8n me out....
my dad? which daddy is that?... (inside joke)....

Nov 30, 2007 4:31 AM

Pink :

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It's easy to see that you are a rebellious son.
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But, you sure aren't the only one. There's getting to be more and more like you in the world.
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Now, me? Hah! I'm a rarity. I'm just an old Marine. We are all dogs from Hell. Teufelhunde!
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Ask Brother Jones, he'll tell you. But, make it in a personal email.
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:)

Nov 30, 2007 9:42 AM

Boanerges :

It's easy to see that you are a rebellious son.

uhmm.. those who know me.. know... I've never been a "rebellious son"....

Nov 30, 2007 9:45 AM

Pink :

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Rebellious to your father.
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For me, it is easy to see that you have unresolved issues regarding what it means to carry out the male role in society. But, like I said, it isn't your fault--many men have that problem--in fact it is common. There are more mommas' boys than there are mommas.
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But, it is none of my business regarding what motivates you.
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I'm sorry for any thing untoward I have said to you here in the last few posts.
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Please forgive me.
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Seriously.
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Let it go.

Nov 30, 2007 11:16 AM

Boanerges :

it is none of my business regarding what motivates you. I'm sorry for any thing untoward I have said to you here in the last few posts. But, it is none of my business regarding what motivates you.

last few posts? naa.. its all good, Phil... if you wanna peek into my world of thoughts at this moment in time, watch my newest vid.. should have your speakers turned up....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RgGjfhz-E4

rebellious to your father. For me, it is easy to see that you have unresolved issues regarding what it means to carry out the male role in society

please, do explain!.... you've caught my interest...

Nov 30, 2007 11:40 AM

Pink :

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Your identity is none of my business.
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But, there is definitely a problem regarding gender roles in America.
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Nov 30, 2007 11:49 AM

Boanerges :

But, there is definitely a problem regarding gender roles in America.
uhmm.. okie.. I'm fully committed to being a male... no question about that!... yaaaa maaaan....

Nov 30, 2007 11:54 AM

Pink :

.
And, so, what are your prospects for marriage?
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:)
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None of my business; but, do you have a girl friend that you find physically attractive because she is a woman?
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Nov 30, 2007 1:48 PM

Boanerges :

marriage? I probably will never get married....
and no.. I have no girlfriend...
I have been unlucky at love!........ count your blessings, ey....

that you find physically attractive because she is a woman?

I find alot of women that I am attracted to.. and yes, specifically because they are - female.....

I am not into - males - for physical attraction....

Nov 30, 2007 2:00 PM

Pink :

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Do you need lessons?
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Did your mother exhibit any role modeling that shows you what a good woman is like?
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I have been unlucky at love!........ count your blessings, ey....
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Sounds like a Freudian slip to me. Luck has nothing to do with love--nada, zilch, zero. It's all commitment and dedication. "Once you have put your hand to the plow, keep your eye on the mark!" ---The Apostle Paul.
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Come hell or high water.
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Love, in the end, always triumphs.
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Like the Good Book sez, Jesus never fails. We do; but, real men keep on doing our best.
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You are a persistent cuss and that is the first and biggest battle. Next is learning to share equally as we lower our expectations. It is important to accept people just as they are--especially in love more than in any other case.
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Life is a hard row with out a partner (help mate?).
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Nov 30, 2007 3:47 PM

Boanerges :

Did your mother exhibit any role modeling that shows you what a good woman is like?

my parents were divorced when I was like 6 or 7.. One of my step moms was only 2yrs older than me when I was in the 10th grade!

Luck has nothing to do with love--nada, zilch, zero.

I disagree... I should know.. I've been to many many places.... and had many many chances..

It's all commitment and dedication.

uhmm.. yeah, afterwards.. first step is to meet someone. Do we meet someone because your generation says we should get married (which is now about 65% failure rate).. or.. do we get married because we WANT to...?

Love, in the end, always triumphs.

sure.. that love does not have to be in a partnership for it to work. Love is not something that can be boxed into marriage only situation...

Like the Good Book sez, Jesus never fails. We do; but, real men keep on doing our best.

Jesus never married either :)

You are a persistent cuss and that is the first and biggest battle.

Battle? I thought love never fails? If I am persistent, surely the women I would marry would like that in her man!

Next is learning to share equally as we lower our expectations.

I think that has to do with marriage, and not before marriage..

It is important to accept people just as they are....

that would include - persistence I would guess....

Life is a hard row with out a partner (help mate?)

Being single definitely gives one a different viewpoint on life.... But, you probably don't know much about that seeing you've been married most of your life....

Nov 30, 2007 4:00 PM

Pink :

.
Being single definitely gives one a different viewpoint on life.... But, you probably don't know much about that seeing you've been married most of your life....
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heh heh heh
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But, you've never been married and you know more about it than I do?
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It's nothing you and I will ever settle here; but, you are wrong in most of your points.
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There is no law that sez any of us has to be right now, is there?
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This train of thought isn't usually very productive.
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It's all opinion at the level we're discussing.
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:)

Nov 30, 2007 4:35 PM

Boanerges :

have you been getting into the wine, Pink?
"Being single definitely gives one a different viewpoint on life.... But, you probably don't know much about that seeing you've been married most of your life...."
Phil: "But, you've never been married and you know more about it than I do?"
I do? where did I say that.. I said the reverse..."you probably don't know much about [being single] [since] you've been married most of your life...."
re: don't know much about [being single]
you said: "Life is a hard row with out a partner (help mate?)"
how can you KNOW that if you've been married most of your life.... its like stating that you know what its like to be a black man, simply because your best friend, a black man, has told you so...

I mean.. come on...